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Subject: [working-gundog] test blindness?
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cwaltUser is Offline

MH
MH
Posts:180


07/28/2008 7:45 AM  
One of the truly disappointing characteristics of North American versatile dog fanciers is their expectations for their testing systems. Whenever I give a training or behavior seminar the most common question I get is: "How do I get a better score on...?" Unfortunately the expectations for their dogs are limited to the improvement of their test scores rather than the improvement of their dogs. I preach a 'Train Beyond the Test' philosophy in which tests are only a stage in the development of a versatile hunting dog. My bias is that I am a devotee of hunting dogs and consider them unfinished if they do not hunt. That may be an elitist attitude but I delight in studying the development of a dog as it learns to hunt, something that cannot be trained. Training should develop the relationship between between handler and dog so that the handler can understand what is going on while the dog is really learning to hunt wild game. I realize that I am a dinosaur destined to become extinct as human populations grow and envelop more and more of what little wild land we have left. Unfortunately many thousands of our versatile dog fanciers have no opportunity to hunt wild game and testing has become their only dog related outlet. These people are quite variable in terms of what a dog means to them and some are devoted to a weekend or a week of bird hunting each season and testing is only a stopgap exercise. An increasing number of versatile dog fanciers (and test judges) have little or no interest in hunting and are test enthusiasts. And then there are the socialite types who get enthusiastic about dogs because they can get into the in-group, an expectation that leads to the burgeoning of the dog group politics that destroy most versatile dog groups by rendering their activities worthless exercises in personal power. Tests which originated as minimal requirements for a started hunting dog have become the highest goals for many thousands of dogs. The worth of a dog and, unfortunately, the worth of a dog owner are now evaluated by their test scores and the hunting abilities of a human and dog team are ignored. When I became an enthusiast of versatile dog testing in the late 1960s we viewed the test system an an examination of young dogs for the benefit of breeders and pup buyers and the later tests were were simply to inform the handler what could be improved in their dog's training. Hunting dogs were the objective and the need for repeated testing wasn't considered worthwhile. As the testing systems developed we found an increasing number of participants repeating the higher level tests solely for test score bragging rights. Today we have testing systems that require judges to run their own dogs repeatedly to maintain their qualification as judges, their knowledge of dogs and hunting are only incidental qualifications. I know versatile dog judges who don't hunt but run their trained dogs in three advanced tests each year to keep their social standing as a judge up to the 'standard'. I know a couple of judges who don't hunt anymore and spend two hours each and every day training, a behavior that I consider pathological. Each individual at a versatile dog test is there for a different reason and most of these reasons are now about self-esteem and social status. When tests and trials become entirely about people and have little to do with dogs there is no need for me to continue associating with the group. My interest is dogs, not human social interactions. If you want to really learn about the nasty aspects of animal behavior join a dog group and work hard to improve it... it's quite a learning experience. Cj
dancindollpntrsUser is Offline


Posts:9


07/28/2008 7:58 AM  
All I can say to this comment is, AMEN.  I have pointers, and  yes, they hunt.  They also retrieve :)).   However, I belong to a parent club that has no interest and/or desire to improve the working potential of the breed.  After years of banging my head against the wall, trying, along with a small core group of other fanciers who believe the dog has more to offer than just a win or placement at a dog show,  I finally learned.  Too bad there aren't tests for humans so we could figure out faster what is worth wasting time on and what's not.

Laurie
If you want to really learn about the nasty aspects of animal behavior join a dog group and work hard to improve it... it's quite a learning experience. 



-----Original Message-----
From: Cj
To:
Sent: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 8:28 am
Subject: [working-gundog] test blindness?

One of the truly disappointing characteristics of North American versatile dog fanciers is their expectations for their testing systems. Whenever I give a training or behavior seminar the most common question I get is: "How do I get a better score on...?" Unfortunately the expectations for their dogs are limited to the improvement of their test scores rather than the improvement of their dogs. I preach a 'Train Beyond the Test' philosophy in which tests are only a stage in the development of a versatile hunting dog. My bias is that I am a devotee of hunting dogs and consider them unfinished if they do not hunt. That may be an elitist attitude but I delight in studying the development of a dog as it learns to hunt, something that cannot be trained. Training should develop the relationship between b! etween handler and dog so that the handler can understand what is going on while the dog is really learning to hunt wild game. I realize that I am a dinosaur destined to become extinct as human populations grow and envelop more and more of what little wild land we have left.  
Unfortunately many thousands of our versatile dog fanciers have no opportunity to hunt wild game and testing has become their only dog related outlet. These people are quite variable in terms of what a dog means to them and some are devoted to a weekend or a week of bird hunting each season and testing is only a stopgap exercise. An increasing number of versatile dog fanciers (and test judges) have little or no interest in hunting and are test enthusiasts. And then there are the socialite types who get enthusiastic about dogs because they can get into the in-group, an expectation that leads to the burgeoning of the dog group politics that destroy most versatile dog groups by rendering their activities worthless exercises in personal power. 
 
Tests which originated as minimal requirements for a started hunting dog have become the highest goals for many thousands of dogs. The worth of a dog and, unfortunately, the worth of a dog owner are now evaluated by their test scores and the hunting abilities of a human and dog team are ignored. When I became an enthusiast of versatile dog testing in the late 1960s we viewed the test system an an examination of young dogs for the benefit of breeders and pup buyers and the later tests were were simply to inform the handler what could be improved in their dog's training. Hunting dogs were the objective and the need for repeated testing wasn't considered worthwhile. As the testing systems developed we found an increasing number of participants repeating the higher level tests solely for test score bragging rights. Today we have testing systems that require judges to run their own dogs repeatedly to maintain their qualification as judges, their knowledge of dogs and hunting are ! only incidental qualifications. I know versatile dog judges who don't hunt but run their trained dogs in three advanced tests each year to keep their social standing as a judge up to the 'standard'. I know a couple of judges who don't hunt anymore and spend two hours each and every day training, a behavior that I consider pathological. 
 
Each individual at a versatile dog test is there for a different reason and most of these reasons are now about self-esteem and social status. When tests and trials become entirely about people and have little to do with dogs there is no need for me to continue associating with the group. My interest is dogs, not human social interactions. If you want to really learn about the nasty aspects of animal behavior join a dog group and work hard to improve it... it's quite a learning experience. 
Cj 
craigUser is Offline

JH
JH
Posts:27


07/28/2008 8:06 AM  
CJ, may I quote this in my book?


On 28-Jul-08, at 7:28 AM, Cj wrote:

One of the truly disappointing characteristics of North American versatile dog fanciers is their expectations for their testing systems.  Whenever I give a training or behavior seminar the most common question I get is: "How do I get a better score on...?"  Unfortunately the expectations for their dogs are limited to the improvement of their test scores rather than the improvement of their dogs.  I preach a 'Train Beyond the Test' philosophy in which tests are only a stage in the development of a versatile hunting dog.  My bias is that I am a devotee of hunting dogs and consider them unfinished if they do not hunt.  That may be an elitist attitude but I delight in studying the development of a dog as it learns to hunt, something that cannot be trained.  Training should develop the relationship between between handler and dog so that the handler can understand what is going on while the dog is really learning to hunt wild game.  I realize that I am a dinosaur destined to become extinct as human populations grow and envelop more and more of what little wild land we have left. 
Unfortunately many thousands of our versatile dog fanciers have no opportunity to hunt wild game and testing has become their only dog related outlet.  These people are quite variable in terms of what a dog means to them and some are devoted to a weekend or a week of bird hunting each season and testing is only a stopgap exercise.  An increasing number of versatile dog fanciers (and test judges) have little or no interest in hunting and are test enthusiasts.  And then there are the socialite types who get enthusiastic about dogs because they can get into the in-group, an expectation that leads to the burgeoning of the dog group politics that destroy most versatile dog groups by rendering their activities worthless exercises in personal power.

Tests which originated as minimal requirements for a started hunting dog have become the highest goals for many thousands of dogs.   The worth of a dog and, unfortunately, the worth of a dog owner are now evaluated by their test scores and the hunting abilities of a human and dog team are ignored.  When I became an enthusiast of versatile dog testing in the late 1960s we viewed the test system an an examination of young dogs for the benefit of breeders and pup buyers and the later tests were were simply to inform the handler what could be improved in their dog's training.  Hunting dogs were the objective and the need for repeated testing wasn't considered worthwhile.  As the testing systems developed we found an increasing number of participants repeating the higher level tests solely for test score bragging rights.  Today we have testing systems that require judges to run their own dogs repeatedly to maintain their qualification as judges, their knowledge of dogs and hunting are only incidental qualifications.  I know versatile dog judges who don't hunt but run their trained dogs in three advanced tests each year to keep their social standing as a judge up to the 'standard'.  I know a couple of judges who don't hunt anymore and spend two hours each and every day training, a behavior that I consider pathological.

Each individual at a versatile dog test is there for a different reason and most of these reasons are now about self-esteem and social status.  When tests and trials become entirely about people and have little to do with dogs there is no need for me to continue associating with the group.  My interest is dogs, not human social interactions.  If you want to really learn about the nasty aspects of animal behavior join a dog group and work hard to improve it... it's quite a learning experience.
Cj


www.craigkoshykphoto.ca
www.chiendog.blogspot.com



sdgrahamUser is Offline


Posts:10


07/28/2008 8:06 AM  
>>If you want to really learn about the nasty aspects of animal behavior join a dog group and work hard to improve it... it's quite a learning experience.<< Hunting-dog people are indeed imperfect. On the other hand, I still like them better than those who run many, if not most, show-dominated national AKC breed clubs. Steve Graham Box 1900 North Plains, OR 97133 503 647 0310
cwaltUser is Offline

MH
MH
Posts:180


07/28/2008 11:08 AM  
Certainly if you wish. Cj Craig Koshyk wrote: > CJ, may I quote this in my book? > > > On 28-Jul-08, at 7:28 AM, Cj wrote: > >> One of the truly disappointing characteristics of North American >> versatile dog fanciers is their expectations for their testing >> systems. Whenever I give a training or behavior seminar the most >> common question I get is: "How do I get a better score on...?" >> Unfortunately the expectations for their dogs are limited to the >> improvement of their test scores rather than the improvement of their >> dogs. I preach a 'Train Beyond the Test' philosophy in which tests >> are only a stage in the development of a versatile hunting dog. My >> bias is that I am a devotee of hunting dogs and consider them >> unfinished if they do not hunt. That may be an elitist attitude but >> I delight in studying the development of a dog as it learns to hunt, >> something that cannot be trained. Training should develop the >> relationship between between handler and dog so that the handler can >> understand what is going on while the dog is really learning to hunt >> wild game. I realize that I am a dinosaur destined to become extinct >> as human populations grow and envelop more and more of what little >> wild land we have left. >> Unfortunately many thousands of our versatile dog fanciers have no >> opportunity to hunt wild game and testing has become their only dog >> related outlet. These people are quite variable in terms of what a >> dog means to them and some are devoted to a weekend or a week of bird >> hunting each season and testing is only a stopgap exercise. An >> increasing number of versatile dog fanciers (and test judges) have >> little or no interest in hunting and are test enthusiasts. And then >> there are the socialite types who get enthusiastic about dogs because >> they can get into the in-group, an expectation that leads to the >> burgeoning of the dog group politics that destroy most versatile dog >> groups by rendering their activities worthless exercises in personal >> power. >> >> Tests which originated as minimal requirements for a started hunting >> dog have become the highest goals for many thousands of dogs. The >> worth of a dog and, unfortunately, the worth of a dog owner are now >> evaluated by their test scores and the hunting abilities of a human >> and dog team are ignored. When I became an enthusiast of versatile >> dog testing in the late 1960s we viewed the test system an an >> examination of young dogs for the benefit of breeders and pup buyers >> and the later tests were were simply to inform the handler what could >> be improved in their dog's training. Hunting dogs were the objective >> and the need for repeated testing wasn't considered worthwhile. As >> the testing systems developed we found an increasing number of >> participants repeating the higher level tests solely for test score >> bragging rights. Today we have testing systems that require judges >> to run their own dogs repeatedly to maintain their qualification as >> judges, their knowledge of dogs and hunting are only incidental >> qualifications. I know versatile dog judges who don't hunt but run >> their trained dogs in three advanced tests each year to keep their >> social standing as a judge up to the 'standard'. I know a couple of >> judges who don't hunt anymore and spend two hours each and every day >> training, a behavior that I consider pathological. >> >> Each individual at a versatile dog test is there for a different >> reason and most of these reasons are now about self-esteem and social >> status. When tests and trials become entirely about people and have >> little to do with dogs there is no need for me to continue >> associating with the group. My interest is dogs, not human social >> interactions. If you want to really learn about the nasty aspects of >> animal behavior join a dog group and work hard to improve it... it's >> quite a learning experience. >> Cj >> > > www.craigkoshykphoto.ca > www.chiendog.blogspot.com > > > >
mcottonUser is Offline

MH
MH
Posts:87


07/30/2008 1:38 AM  
I hope the new Assn stays with the testing for working attributes and thinks more of what the tests will show of the dog then ending up what the tests will show of the people, for your sake and the dogs Cj. There are people out there who really do believe Cj. Let's hope they don't get beaten down. Marg ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cj" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2008 12:28 AM Subject: [working-gundog] test blindness? > > Each individual at a versatile dog test is there for a different reason > and most of these reasons are now about self-esteem and social status. > When tests and trials become entirely about people and have little to do > with dogs there is no need for me to continue associating with the group. > My interest is dogs, not human social interactions. If you want to really > learn about the nasty aspects of animal behavior join a dog group and work > hard to improve it... it's quite a learning experience. > Cj
craigUser is Offline

JH
JH
Posts:27


07/30/2008 7:14 AM  

Each individual at a versatile dog test is there for a different reason and most of these reasons are now about self-esteem and social status. 
Cj 


Cj

I think we can go even further with this idea, right to the very reason the relationship between man and dog exists. I read an interesting book a while ago called "The Truth About Dogs An Inquiry Into the Ancestry, Social Conventions, Mental Habits, and Moral Fiber of Canis Familiaris" By STEPHEN BUDIANSKY. In it, the author makes a fairly convincing case for the idea that dogs are in fact parasites. And, like all parasites, they evolved by finding the chink in the host's armour that allows them to survive. Unlike other parasites however, the chink is not a physical one, no cut in the skin, no insect vector, rather it is a chink in our psychological makeup. Humans have an enormous desire to nurture the young and helpless, we show great empathy towards cute cuddly creatures that whine and lick our faces, and we have a huge ego that requires almost constant stroking. 

Let's face it, if a dog's contribution to our lives is measured strictly on a calorie consumed to calorie provided equation, we would not allow it near us. So what makes up the difference? We must get something in return for what dogs "give" us, right? Well Budiansky argues, and Cj's statement supports him, that what we get are things like improved social status and self-esteem. 

When you think about it, it really is a clever ruse.  By learning to stroke our ego and act as a sort of social lubricant, dogs managed to escape the cruel world of wild beasts, disease and starvation. They found the secret entrance to a world where they are pampered like no other creature on earth. 


rospiganUser is Offline

MH
MH
Posts:372


07/30/2008 8:29 AM  
Craig wrote:
>>>I think we can go even further with this idea, right to the very reason the relationship between man and dog exists. I read an interesting book a while ago called "The Truth About Dogs An Inquiry Into the Ancestry, Social Conventions, Mental Habits, and Moral Fiber of Canis Familiaris" By STEPHEN BUDIANSKY. In it, the author makes a fairly convincing case for the idea that dogs are in fact parasites. And, like all parasites, they evolved by finding the chink in the host's armour that allows them to survive. Unlike other parasites however, the chink is not a physical one, no cut in the skin, no insect vector, rather it is a chink in our psychological makeup. Humans have an enormous desire to nurture the young and helpless, we show great empathy towards cute cuddly creatures that whine and lick our faces, and we have a huge ego that requires almost constant stroking. 

Let's face it, if a dog's contribution to our lives is measured strictly on a calorie consumed to calorie provided equation, we would not allow it near us. So what makes up the difference? We must get something in return for what dogs "give" us, right? Well Budiansky argues, and Cj's statement supports him, that what we get are things like improved social status and self-esteem. 

When you think about it, it really is a clever ruse.  By learning to stroke our ego and act as a sort of social lubricant, dogs managed to escape the cruel world of wild beasts, disease and starvation. They found the secret entrance to a world where they are pampered like no other creature on earth. >>>>
 
 
It sounds like a very plausible idea although I do not agree that the dog is a parasite - it only behaves like one due to circumstances that arose by chance. A true parasite can't survive without a host, dogs can.
 
Beside of that it has now been officially confessed in Sweden that dogs used for hunting only finds more birds than trial dogs and in addition they last the whole day while a trial dog last for perhaps only 10 minutes. The main reason is that dogs used for hunting only are allowed to think and pace themselves while the handler makes the thinking and determines the pace during a trial.
 
Dogs that are allowed to think will learn to learn....so to say. They do not range very wide and the land they cover they cover much better than the wide ranging trial dogs. They also learn that it is of no use to run like burning rabbit right from the start of the day but they have to save energy so they will last to the evening.
 
Well, this is of course only a general direction of the state of the dog sports. As always you can find all kinds in every different locker.
 
I have noticed that the closer the dog works to the handler in a sport, the more of a social event the sport is. Most big dogs shows are not even dog shows but a queer kind of beauty contest for humans. At least I think so. Among spaniels and Labradors there are huge groups of people who own some "dual-purpose" type dogs that has never been closer to live game than the neighbours chickens on the other side of the net. Still the owners believe they have some high class working gundogs and speak, dress, live, sleep and dream according to that false fact.
 
 When the distance to the dog increases in the test, the more practically minded the handlers also become. Pointing birddogs can work far away but still within sight most of the time and hence they entice people who never have killed wild game and never will have the intention to do so. Still a majority of the handlers are hunters also.
 
When we come to dogs that work out of sight most of the time, like moose-, bear-, hare- and fox hounds, then the social part of the trial is of minor interest. Of course the handlers enjoy to meet and chat and perhaps eat and drink together in the evening but that is in no way the main purpose of the trial for anyone. The main purpose is to trial the dog and put a label on it with its value for the day.
 
Torsti
 
Borta Med Vindens Kennel
"Ask not what your dog can do for you.
Ask what you can do for your dog."
www.rospigan.net
craigUser is Offline

JH
JH
Posts:27


07/30/2008 8:37 AM  


 
It sounds like a very plausible idea although I do not agree that the dog is a parasite - it only behaves like one due to circumstances that arose by chance. A true parasite can't survive without a host, dogs can.

I disagree. I think that if humans disappeared completely from the planet tomorrow, domestic dogs would soon follow. The "dog-like" creatures that did manage to evolve, would basically become wolves or something very similar...if they survived at all.


dancindollpntrsUser is Offline


Posts:9


07/30/2008 8:45 AM  
No way.  Not ALL domestic dogs would disappear.   My thoroughly spoiled, couch sleeping, bed hoggin' pointers are experts at catching all kinds of things..chipmunks, squirrels, birds that use the feeders and are dumb enough to ground feed on the droppings are all fair game...when hunting, while they have been trained not to jump and kill a bird, I'm fairly certain that, if left long enough to their own devices and a growling tummy, it wouldn't take their instinct for survival to kick in and convince them that if I'm not there, grabbing and eating a bird would not necessarily be a bad thing!

Laurie M


-----Original Message-----
From: Craig Koshyk
To: working-gundog@web.whc.net
Sent: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 10:23 am
Subject: Re: [working-gundog] test blindness?



 
It sounds like a very plausible idea although I do not agree that the dog is a parasite - it only behaves like one due to circumstances that arose by chance. A true parasite can't survive without a host, dogs can.

I disagree. I think that if humans disappeared completely from the planet tomorrow, domestic dogs would soon follow. The "dog-like" creatures that did manage to evolve, would basically become wolves or something very similar...if they survived at all.


=
sdgrahamUser is Offline


Posts:10


07/30/2008 9:24 AM  
If you're talking about the VHDF and have any knowledge of its origins, you will know that it was formed for political reasons - something that involves humans, not dogs. That doesn't make it wrong, of course, but it's nice to keep the perspective in mind. Steve Graham Box 1900 North Plains, OR 97133 503 647 0310 -----Original Message----- From: working-gundog-request@web.whc.net [mailto:working-gundog-request@web.whc.net] On Behalf Of Margaret Cotton Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 12:26 AM To: working-gundog@web.whc.net Subject: Re: [working-gundog] test blindness? I hope the new Assn stays with the testing for working attributes and thinks more of what the tests will show of the dog then ending up what the tests will show of the people, for your sake and the dogs Cj. There are people out there who really do believe Cj. Let's hope they don't get beaten down. Marg
rospiganUser is Offline

MH
MH
Posts:372


07/30/2008 11:49 AM  

 
It sounds like a very plausible idea although I do not agree that the dog is a parasite - it only behaves like one due to circumstances that arose by chance. A true parasite can't survive without a host, dogs can.

>>>I disagree. I think that if humans disappeared completely from the planet tomorrow, domestic dogs would soon follow. The "dog-like" creatures that did manage to evolve, would basically become wolves or something very similar...if they survived at all.>>>

We must keep in mind that the "pure bred" dogs we have can not maintain their appearance and mentality by their own will. They need all the professional help they can get from man and even then only a few of them are approved by man as perfect examples of the breed in question. The pure bred dogs we have are in fact entirely artificial. The breed description was never made by dog or nature but by man. The pure bred dog is so incredibly fragile so we only need to shut our eyes for a moment and it is soiled and no more pure!
 
If we let them loose they will after some time, a number of generations, evolve into something that in Swedish are called stray dogs. You will find them around the big towns mainly in and on both sides of the equatorial belt. They all look pretty much the same, no matter if you see them in Africa, America or Asia. Remove man in an instant from the face of the earth and most of them will fade away and be eaten by other predators. However this is the fate many other urban animals will face, for ex. the magpie. But like the magpie existed before man did, so did the dog. I doubt neither of them will become extinct just because the entire human race moves to some other planet. Some of them will evolve to fit the new situation. And as you say, some of them will in fact be mixed with wolf and go back to again being some kind of wolfs.
 
Torsti
Borta Med Vindens Kennel
"Ask not what your dog can do for you.
Ask what you can do for your dog."
www.rospigan.net
cwaltUser is Offline

MH
MH
Posts:180


07/30/2008 12:54 PM  
Steve Graham wrote: > If you're talking about the VHDF and have any knowledge of its origins, you > will know that it was formed for political reasons - something that involves > humans, not dogs. > > That doesn't make it wrong, of course, but it's nice to keep the perspective > in mind. > > Steve Graham > Box 1900 > North Plains, OR 97133 > 503 647 0310 > Steve: I was indeed referring to the Versatile Hunting Dog Federation and I have no knowledge of a political basis for the origin of the federation. I joined during the latter half of the first year, participated in the 2nd annual conference in Nevada and I agreed with the objectives and goals of the group. There has been no ranting, to my knowledge, about the origins of the group and there appear to be no obvious animosities toward anyone. I have been made aware of what members of two other organizations have claimed but they had absolutely no evidence they could present to me to support their claims. Until I discover otherwise I totally agree with the objectives and goals of the organization and will work with the group to test any and all versatile breeds in an objective European type test system. I have no hesitation from my perspective but if you feel you have information that I should have you could contact me off list. Cj
mcottonUser is Offline

MH
MH
Posts:87


07/30/2008 2:09 PM  
I doubt a group of dogs could form an Assn so of course there is always some "political" in any group. Don't be suckered in by the anti's that like to spread a load of dirt over anyones endeavours. We call it here, Tall Poppy syndrome. Marg ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Graham" To: Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2008 3:08 AM Subject: RE: [working-gundog] test blindness? > If you're talking about the VHDF and have any knowledge of its origins, > you > will know that it was formed for political reasons - something that > involves > humans, not dogs. > > That doesn't make it wrong, of course, but it's nice to keep the > perspective > in mind. > > Steve Graham > Box 1900 > North Plains, OR 97133 > 503 647 0310 > > -----Original Message----- > From: working-gundog-request@web.whc.net > [mailto:working-gundog-request@web.whc.net] On Behalf Of Margaret Cotton > Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 12:26 AM > To: working-gundog@web.whc.net > Subject: Re: [working-gundog] test blindness? > > I hope the new Assn stays with the testing for working attributes and > thinks > > more of what the tests will show of the dog then ending up what the tests > will show of the people, for your sake and the dogs Cj. > There are people out there who really do believe Cj. Let's hope they > don't > get beaten down. > > Marg > > >
mcottonUser is Offline

MH
MH
Posts:87


07/30/2008 2:09 PM  
Dogs might be parasites but humans are a plague on the planet.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2008 2:23 AM
Subject: Re: [working-gundog] test blindness?



 
It sounds like a very plausible idea although I do not agree that the dog is a parasite - it only behaves like one due to circumstances that arose by chance. A true parasite can't survive without a host, dogs can.

I disagree. I think that if humans disappeared completely from the planet tomorrow, domestic dogs would soon follow. The "dog-like" creatures that did manage to evolve, would basically become wolves or something very similar...if they survived at all.


sdgrahamUser is Offline


Posts:10


07/30/2008 11:18 PM  

I don't know why people think they're being attacked when the word "politics" is mentioned.

 

If people don't like the way an existing organization is doing things and they are unsuccessful in promoting their cause(s) therein, they have every right to try something else.

 

Politics is the art of the possible.

Otto Von Bismarck, remark, Aug. 11, 1867
German Prussian politician (1815 - 1898)

 

Steve Graham

Box 1900

North Plains, OR 97133

503 647 0310

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: working-gundog-request@web.whc.net [mailto:working-gundog-request@web.whc.net] On Behalf Of Cj
Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 11:41 AM
To: working-gundog@web.whc.net
Subject: Re: [working-gundog] test blindness?

 

Steve Graham wrote:

> If you're talking about the VHDF and have any knowledge of its origins, you

> will know that it was formed for political reasons - something that involves

> humans, not dogs.

> 

> That doesn't make it wrong, of course, but it's nice to keep the perspective

> in mind.

> 

> Steve Graham

> Box 1900

> North Plains, OR 97133

> 503 647 0310

>  

Steve:

I was indeed referring to the Versatile Hunting Dog Federation and I

have no knowledge of a political basis for the origin of the

federation.  I joined during the latter half of the first year,

participated in the 2nd annual conference in Nevada and I agreed with

the objectives and goals of the group.  There has been no ranting, to my

knowledge, about the origins of the group and there appear to be no

obvious animosities toward anyone.  I have been made aware of what

members of two other organizations have claimed but they had absolutely

no evidence they could present to me to support their claims.  Until I

discover otherwise I totally agree with the objectives and goals of the

organization and will work with the group to test any and all versatile

breeds in an objective European type test system.  I have no hesitation

from my perspective but if you feel you have information that I should

have you could contact me off list.

Cj

 

rospiganUser is Offline

MH
MH
Posts:372


07/31/2008 12:31 AM  
Marg wrote:
>>>Dogs might be parasites but humans are a plague on the planet.>>>
 
You are right! Today I will go to the cruise liner for a two week period. During that time we will burn 500 tons of heavy fuel oil, one of the nastiest fuels you can find. We will produce the incredible 2500 tons of grey and black water. We will produce I do not know how many tons of other waste. We will produce tens of thousands articles for chemical cleaning. We will .....
 
All this for nothing! We leave the passengers on the very precise spot where we picked them up, so there has not even been a useful transport work done. Oh yes, we have transported them around the Baltic sea but for what reason? They say we give them "an experience". Well, a good hangover together with a handful of reasons to take a divorce is an experience too! A few of them die onboard. Some jump overboard. Some are flown to the nearest hospital with a helicopter. That's an experience too.
 
I am not much of a greenie but here is my limit. If I have to burn heavy fuel oil, then there should at least be a higher meaning with it, for example inexpensive transports. Cruise liners could just as well run on a more expensive but much more cleaner fuel.
 
You know the cruise liner was to me like a new cellphone. Fun and interesting for a couple of months but since it like a new cellphone actually did not produce anything new or useful of importance it soon became boring and of no interest :-)))
 
Well, in September it is over for my part.
 
Torsti
Borta Med Vindens Kennel
"Ask not what your dog can do for you.
Ask what you can do for your dog."
www.rospigan.net
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07/31/2008 9:08 AM  
I didn't think you were attacking me, or anyone else for that matter, but I am a cynic when it comes to politics. I suppose that that's an innate part of animal behaviour for some species. All I do know is that a group of people wanted to do a somewhat different type of dog testing and Bodo Winterhelt and Ed Bailey were asked to be advisors and they accepted. After more than 40 years of friendship joining up was the least I could do and I think I've got a few ideas left to share with you young guys. Aside from that I like to watch small and large Munsterlanders as well as Drahthaars. Cj Steve Graham wrote: > I don't know why people think they're being attacked when the word > "politics" is mentioned. > > > > If people don't like the way an existing organization is doing things and > they are unsuccessful in promoting their cause(s) therein, they have every > right to try something else. > > > > Politics is the art of the possible. > > Otto Von > Bismarck, remark, Aug. 11, 1867 > German Prussian politician (1815 - 1898) > > > > Steve Graham >
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08/02/2008 4:19 PM  
I haven't read Budianski either, but it's hard for me to understand his parasitism premise if he has ever had a relationship with a working dog! In "Dogs, A Startling New Understanding of Canine Origin, Behavior & Evolution," Ray and Lorna Coppinger put forth the thesis that the animals which ultimately became today's dogs split from those that became today's wolves simply by being those which had a higher tolerance for proximity to humans and found the empty niche near humans - that of food in dumps and latrines - satisfactory and easy pickings. The relationship began as a commensal one - not parasitic. "Dogs" can still be found on the planet today occupying such a niche and there is no evidence they are all the result of the interbreeding (mongrellization) of existing breeds - they appear to be, rather, the descendants of these early animals. But with the development of working breeds, the relationship evolved from commensal more towards one of mutualism. These animals are certainly not parasitic. Sure, left to their own devices, most would die off - as would happen to any specie with a sudden reorganisation of the niche thay had evolved to occupy. All, however would not necessarily die off. Humans are no different: where I (and Torsti) live, if "Global Warming" results in a rapid cooling of the local climate by some ten to twenty degrees F annual mean which persists over any protracted period and fuel costs shoot to the sky, a bunch of folks are not going to survive - but some few will. If Budianski really suggests the relationship between humans and dogs developed as the result of conscious choice by the dogs, he must really smoke some powerful stuff! jere
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08/02/2008 5:07 PM  
Not only that he does not take into account the use of dogs in farming has been hugely advantageous to human development, and all the other useful jobs that dogs do - useful to us. Marg ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jere Murray" To: Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2008 10:06 AM Subject: Re: [working-gundog] test blindness? >I haven't read Budianski either, but it's hard for me to understand his >parasitism > premise if he has ever had a relationship with a working dog! > > In "Dogs, A Startling New Understanding of Canine Origin, Behavior & > Evolution," > Ray and Lorna Coppinger put forth the thesis that the animals which > ultimately > became today's dogs split from those that became today's wolves simply by > being > those which had a higher tolerance for proximity to humans and found the > empty > niche near humans - that of food in dumps and latrines - satisfactory and > easy > pickings. The relationship began as a commensal one - not parasitic. > "Dogs" can > still be found on the planet today occupying such a niche and there is no > evidence > they are all the result of the interbreeding (mongrellization) of existing > breeds - > they appear to be, rather, the descendants of these early animals. But > with the > development of working breeds, the relationship evolved from commensal > more towards > one of mutualism. These animals are certainly not parasitic. Sure, left > to their > own devices, most would die off - as would happen to any specie with a > sudden > reorganisation of the niche thay had evolved to occupy. All, however > would not > necessarily die off. Humans are no different: where I (and Torsti) live, > if "Global > Warming" results in a rapid cooling of the local climate by some ten to > twenty > degrees F annual mean which persists over any protracted period and fuel > costs > shoot to the sky, a bunch of folks are not going to survive - but some few > will. > > If Budianski really suggests the relationship between humans and dogs > developed as > the result of conscious choice by the dogs, he must really smoke some > powerful > stuff! > > jere >
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