From: dancindollpntrs@aol.com

To: working-gundog@web.whc.net

Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 7:00 AM

Subject: Re: [working-gundog] spayed/neutered dogs in Europe

I usually lurk on this list; having said that, I'd like to offer my two cents worth of opinion here. 
In the US, about ten years ago, the number of animals in kill shelters were at their highest numbers, and agencies, as well as local governements, were desperately struggling to decrease/minimize the number of unwanted animals of reproductive age that were being euthanized on a daily basis.

Many shelters started 'experimental' programs in which young, very young (ie, 8 weeks of age) animals were neutered/spayed prior to being placed for adoption.  There wasn't a lot of scientific data available on the long-term repercussions of such procedures, and, for the average pet owner, the influence of the endocrine system on health wasn't, and continues to be, not of major interest or concern.   What was important, was that shelters saw an almost immediate effect on their shelter populations; while the numbers continue to be unacceptable, they are, at least, manageable. which meant the practice was acceptable.

For persons who breed and participate in competitive events, the pros and cons of altering a pet have different ramifications.  We all now know, pretty much, that hormones play an important part in the growth and development of animals; and that most don't meet their mature potential until they are 2-3 years of age, and that altering a pet has the potential to adversely affect its performance. 

The bottom line is, in the US, there are no laws that require a pet owner to alter their pet. It is soley a decision made at the discretion of the owner, and the owner's vet.  With many friends who are practicing veterinarians, I would say that most vets prefer NOT to alter young dogs, but do so at the request of their clients, because they have seen, firsthand, what happens when unplanned breedings occur.  Although early altering of pets may affect their long-term growth and development, it often does so in ways not easily seen by the average pet owner. 

Despite what your personal experiences may be, pyrometra and mammary gland cancer are huge risks for older, unaltered female canines.  Oh-mammary cancer, just so you know, can and does occur after spaying--like women, it's luck of the draw on which bitch gets it and which bitch doesn't.  Having known several persons who have lost their beloved companions to pyrometra, I would say the risk of spaying a bitch at a younger age is far less dangerous than allowing a bitch to remain intact and suffer pyrometra. 

Because the law doesn't prohibit the altering of pets at a young age doesn't mean it's right or okay to do so, but one has to look at the big picture and put the circumstances relating to such decisions into perspective.  That means compromising, and while it isn't always easy to do, the greater good must be considered.

I realize these comments can lead to all kinds of discussions about who should or shouldn't breed, but that's another discussion for another time. I just sensed some hostility in the curt comments back and forth on this list, and thought I'd chime in.  Usually, people on this list live and let live, as it were, when it comes to differing opinions, which is something I kinda like about it.

Laurie McCarty,
Dancindoll Pointers
Maryland, USA



-----Original Message-----
From: Stu West
To: working-gundog@web.whc.net
Sent: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 1:24 pm
Subject: Re: [working-gundog] spayed/neutered dogs in Europe

the dog isn't done growing until 2-3 YEARS of age. 
British & American law allows removal of the principal hormonal source at 5 MONTHS of age and you feel that is fine?? 
They are sexually MATURE at 5 MONTHS of age because 30% of them have had a puppy menses?? 
 
Stu, Dawn & Hunter West Founder, Pointing Labradors "Letting Labs Point the Way!" 
Alma Bottom Pointing Labradors 
N4758 350th Street, Elmwood, WI 54740 
(715) 639-3900 h&w (715)684-9892 cell StuWest@AlmaBottom.com www.AlmaBottom.com 
 
 
Sonia Skinner wrote: 
> Although I have had my dog and bitches neutered, I would not consider under 
> any circumstances having them done at such a young age, I feel they should 
> be sexually mature. So far, in Britain, dogs/bitches are not neutered under 
> 5/6 months of age as far as I know. 
> 
> Sonia 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

---

The Famous, the Infamous, the Lame - in your browser. Get the TMZ Toolbar Now!

Back from the cruise liner I know some passangers that should be spayed or neutred))

----- Original Message -----

From: Margaret Cotton

To: working-gundog@web.whc.net

Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 9:11 AM

Subject: Re: [working-gundog] spayed/neutered dogs in Europe

Laurie

 

There's no hostility towards the folk commenting on this topic, just the topic itself.

 

Marg

 

----- Original Message -----

From: dancindollpntrs@aol.com

To: working-gundog@web.whc.net

Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 7:00 AM

Subject: Re: [working-gundog] spayed/neutered dogs in Europe

I usually lurk on this list; having said that, I'd like to offer my two cents worth of opinion here. 
In the US, about ten years ago, the number of animals in kill shelters were at their highest numbers, and agencies, as well as local governements, were desperately struggling to decrease/minimize the number of unwanted animals of reproductive age that were being euthanized on a daily basis.

Many shelters started 'experimental' programs in which young, very young (ie, 8 weeks of age) animals were neutered/spayed prior to being placed for adoption.  There wasn't a lot of scientific data available on the long-term repercussions of such procedures, and, for the average pet owner, the influence of the endocrine system on health wasn't, and continues to be, not of major interest or concern.   What was important, was that shelters saw an almost immediate effect on their shelter populations; while the numbers continue to be unacceptable, they are, at least, manageable. which meant the practice was acceptable.

For persons who breed and participate in competitive events, the pros and cons of altering a pet have different ramifications.  We all now know, pretty much, that hormones play an important part in the growth and development of animals; and that most don't meet their mature potential until they are 2-3 years of age, and that altering a pet has the potential to adversely affect its performance. 

The bottom line is, in the US, there are no laws that require a pet owner to alter their pet. It is soley a decision made at the discretion of the owner, and the owner's vet.  With many friends who are practicing veterinarians, I would say that most vets prefer NOT to alter young dogs, but do so at the request of their clients, because they have seen, firsthand, what happens when unplanned breedings occur.  Although early altering of pets may affect their long-term growth and development, it often does so in ways not easily seen by the average pet owner. 

Despite what your personal experiences may be, pyrometra and mammary gland cancer are huge risks for older, unaltered female canines.  Oh-mammary cancer, just so you know, can and does occur after spaying--like women, it's luck of the draw on which bitch gets it and which bitch doesn't.  Having known several persons who have lost their beloved companions to pyrometra, I would say the risk of spaying a bitch at a younger age is far less dangerous than allowing a bitch to remain intact and suffer pyrometra. 

Because the law doesn't prohibit the altering of pets at a young age doesn't mean it's right or okay to do so, but one has to look at the big picture and put the circumstances relating to such decisions into perspective.  That means compromising, and while it isn't always easy to do, the greater good must be considered.

I realize these comments can lead to all kinds of discussions about who should or shouldn't breed, but that's another discussion for another time. I just sensed some hostility in the curt comments back and forth on this list, and thought I'd chime in.  Usually, people on this list live and let live, as it were, when it comes to differing opinions, which is something I kinda like about it.

Laurie McCarty,
Dancindoll Pointers
Maryland, USA



-----Original Message-----
From: Stu West
To: working-gundog@web.whc.net
Sent: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 1:24 pm
Subject: Re: [working-gundog] spayed/neutered dogs in Europe

the dog isn't done growing until 2-3 YEARS of age. 
British & American law allows removal of the principal hormonal source at 5 MONTHS of age and you feel that is fine?? 
They are sexually MATURE at 5 MONTHS of age because 30% of them have had a puppy menses?? 
 
Stu, Dawn & Hunter West Founder, Pointing Labradors "Letting Labs Point the Way!" 
Alma Bottom Pointing Labradors 
N4758 350th Street, Elmwood, WI 54740 
(715) 639-3900 h&w (715)684-9892 cell StuWest@AlmaBottom.com www.AlmaBottom.com 
 
 
Sonia Skinner wrote: 
> Although I have had my dog and bitches neutered, I would not consider under 
> any circumstances having them done at such a young age, I feel they should 
> be sexually mature. So far, in Britain, dogs/bitches are not neutered under 
> 5/6 months of age as far as I know. 
> 
> Sonia 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

---

The Famous, the Infamous, the Lame - in your browser. Get the TMZ Toolbar Now!

Maybe that is the reason why so many bitches have to be put away due to mamal or other cancer related to sex, like our Foxy and Springer.  What will Briz be subjected to in the future?

Torsti

Well, it is easy to say that one should remain strong in certain situationes...

I think she became depressed as she came into a pack of two other dogs, first the oldest one died and then later the 8 year old had to be put to sleep after fitting for a couple of hours non stop.  She had adored him and so her pack had gone apart from me and I am not quite like a dog (big grin).

Sonia
 

Stu, Dawn & Hunter West 
Founder, Pointing Labradors 
"Letting Labs Point the Way!"
Alma Bottom Pointing Labradors
N4758 350th Street, Elmwood, WI 54740
(715) 639-3900 h&w (715)684-9892 cell 
StuWest@AlmaBottom.com   www.AlmaBottom.com

Here in the US the "crazies"  have taken over. We have a huge pet overpopulation problem, the animal shelters are in overflow. Therefore, instead of

addressing the location of the problems they are taking it out on us law abiding and responsible breeders. The cities and counties are passing such

restrictive laws on having intact dogs and breeding litters that it is making it next to impossible for us to do so. Soon, there will be very few "Real"

breeders left. The worst of it is that the problem will not be solved. The economically depressed areas will continue to produce mongrel litters and

unwanted dogs that roam the streets. The unrepeatable pet owners will still take their pets to the shelter when they decide that they no longer want

a dog or cat for whatever reason.

 

It is very sad indeed . . ..

 

tc

 

Terry and Janet Chandler

Rugerheim Kennels

German Shorthaired Pointers/Horses

Las Cruces, NM

575-382-5231

 

 

From: working-gundog-request@web.whc.net [mailto:working-gundog-request@web.whc.net] On Behalf Of Maud & Torsti
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 3:06 AM
To: working-gundog@web.whc.net
Subject: Re: [working-gundog] spayed/neutered dogs in Europe

Back from the cruise liner I know some passangers that should be spayed or neutred))

 

Anyway- commonly we do not spay/neuter dogs in Sweden unless there is a medical or mental problem. Having said that I also know that some folks who regurlarly breed litters use to neuter their bitch when they have had the last litter due to age.

 

Maybe that is the reason why so many bitches have to be put away due to mamal or other cancer related to sex, like our Foxy and Springer.  What will Briz be subjected to in the future?

 

Torsti

Borta Med Vindens Kennel
"Ask not what your dog can do for you.
Ask what you can do for your dog."
www.rospigan.net

I have to say like Mark Twain once said: The more I learn to know people, the more I like dogs!

Torsti

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~