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stuwest
JH
Posts:39
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| 07/21/2008 12:24 PM |
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| nearly all our dogs are spayed or neutered in the us.
what about europe??
--
Stu, Dawn & Hunter West
Founder, Pointing Labradors
"Letting Labs Point the Way!"
Alma Bottom Pointing Labradors
N4758 350th Street, Elmwood, WI 54740
(715) 639-3900 h&w (715)684-9892 cell
StuWest@AlmaBottom.com www.AlmaBottom.com
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rospigan
MH
Posts:372
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| 07/21/2008 1:48 PM |
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Its not usually in sweden. It's more unusuall
than usuall even if many dogs and bitchis should have a better life if it
should be done.
/Maud
Borta Med Vindens Kennel "Ask not what your dog can do for you. Ask
what you can do for your dog." www.rospigan.net
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 7:46 PM
Subject: [working-gundog] spayed/neutered
dogs in europe
nearly all our dogs are spayed or neutered in the us.
what
about europe??
--
Stu, Dawn & Hunter West
Founder, Pointing
Labradors
"Letting Labs Point the Way!"
Alma Bottom Pointing
Labradors
N4758 350th Street, Elmwood, WI 54740
(715) 639-3900 h&w
(715)684-9892 cell
StuWest@AlmaBottom.com www.AlmaBottom.com
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stuwest
JH
Posts:39
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| 07/21/2008 2:50 PM |
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| well, my experience is that the dogs (properly maintained, of course) do
better with normal hormonal development.
i'm believeing that the early spay & Neuter (SN) is causing more harm
than good.
if anyone is interested, I do have some web work from a vet/phd who puts
up the theory also and has some studies to back her up.
Stu, Dawn & Hunter West
Founder, Pointing Labradors
"Letting Labs Point the Way!"
Alma Bottom Pointing Labradors
N4758 350th Street, Elmwood, WI 54740
(715) 639-3900 h&w (715)684-9892 cell
StuWest@AlmaBottom.com www.AlmaBottom.com
Maud & Torsti wrote:
> Its not usually in sweden. It's more unusuall than usuall even if many
> dogs and bitchis should have a better life if it should be done.
>
> /Maud
>
> Borta Med Vindens Kennel
> "Ask not what your dog can do for you.
> Ask what you can do for your dog."
> www.rospigan.net
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Stu West
> *To:* working-gundog
> *Sent:* Monday, July 21, 2008 7:46 PM
> *Subject:* [working-gundog] spayed/neutered dogs in europe
>
> nearly all our dogs are spayed or neutered in the us.
> what about europe??
>
> --
> Stu, Dawn & Hunter West
> Founder, Pointing Labradors
> "Letting Labs Point the Way!"
> Alma Bottom Pointing Labradors
> N4758 350th Street, Elmwood, WI 54740
> (715) 639-3900 h&w (715)684-9892 cell
> StuWest@AlmaBottom.com
> www.AlmaBottom.com
> |
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sdgraham
Posts:10
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| 07/21/2008 4:01 PM |
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| In Germany, spaying and neutering is regarded as egregious mutilation unless
expressly recommended by a veterinarian to resolve health issues.
This is according to my friend who is a long-time Weimaraner owner and
breeder and treasurer of the German Weimaraner club.
Steve Graham
Box 1900
North Plains, OR 97133
503 647 0310
-----Original Message-----
From: working-gundog-request@web.whc.net
[mailto:working-gundog-request@web.whc.net] On Behalf Of Stu West
Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 10:47 AM
To: working-gundog
Subject: [working-gundog] spayed/neutered dogs in europe
nearly all our dogs are spayed or neutered in the us.
what about europe??
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craig
JH
Posts:27
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| 07/21/2008 5:33 PM |
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In France, Italy, Spain and elsewhere I have asked about spaying/neutering most everyone winces at the thought (men tend to sort of cross their legs....).
It is seen as barbaric. Somehow dumping unwanted pups or older dogs on the side of the highway when they are unwanted is seen as much more humane.
On 21-Jul-08, at 4:37 PM, Steve Graham wrote: In Germany, spaying and neutering is regarded as egregious mutilation unless expressly recommended by a veterinarian to resolve health issues.
This is according to my friend who is a long-time Weimaraner owner and breeder and treasurer of the German Weimaraner club.
Steve Graham Box 1900 North Plains, OR 97133 503 647 0310
-----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 10:47 AM To: working-gundog Subject: [working-gundog] spayed/neutered dogs in europe
nearly all our dogs are spayed or neutered in the us. what about europe??
www.craigkoshykphoto.ca www.chiendog.blogspot.com
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soniaskinner
MH
Posts:98
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| 07/22/2008 2:53 AM |
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> nearly all our dogs are spayed or neutered in the us.
> what about europe??
It isn't mandatory here in Britain. I would guess that about 60% are
neutered, but this is purely a guess from looking around at friend's dogs
and my experience of working for a vet. My three dogs are neutered but I
have friends with gundogs and friends with pet dogs, I would think pet dogs
are more likely to be neutered than the gundogs in my experience.
From a health point of view for the bitch, it is better to be spayed, avoids
pyometra completely and reduces mammary tumours if done early enough. Not
so advantageous in the male from the point of view of health, will avoid
prostate cancer.
Sonia
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mcotton
MH
Posts:87
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| 07/22/2008 1:59 PM |
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| If you have no intention of showing or breeding then I can see no reason not
to neuter, but there are side effects in urinary incontinence which probably
costs a number of dogs their lives.
Marg
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sonia Skinner"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 8:38 PM
Subject: Re: [working-gundog] spayed/neutered dogs in Europe
>
>
>
>
>> nearly all our dogs are spayed or neutered in the us.
>> what about europe??
>
>
> It isn't mandatory here in Britain. I would guess that about 60% are
> neutered, but this is purely a guess from looking around at friend's dogs
> and my experience of working for a vet. My three dogs are neutered but I
> have friends with gundogs and friends with pet dogs, I would think pet
> dogs
> are more likely to be neutered than the gundogs in my experience.
>
> From a health point of view for the bitch, it is better to be spayed,
> avoids
> pyometra completely and reduces mammary tumours if done early enough. Not
> so advantageous in the male from the point of view of health, will avoid
> prostate cancer.
>
> Sonia
>
>
>
>
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soniaskinner
MH
Posts:98
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| 07/22/2008 2:18 PM |
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> If you have no intention of showing or breeding then I can see no reason not
> to neuter, but there are side effects in urinary incontinence which probably
> costs a number of dogs their lives.
>
> Marg
I am sure more bitches lose their lives owing to pyometra and mammary
tumours than to incontinence. Despite having a bitch spayed after her first
season (one of my earlier dogs) she developed incontinence when older and
this was easily controlled with a drug which appeared to have no side
effects. It wasn't a hormone. Usually the incontinence is slight and maybe
it is due to old age rather than spaying!
Sonia
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jmurr
MH
Posts:158
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| 07/22/2008 4:44 PM |
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| Can you cite any official statistics to support that claim?
I don't believe it for even the briefest of moments.
If it were true there would be next to no unwanted puppies showing up in the
multitudinous "shelters" all over the country.
Jere
> nearly all our dogs are spayed or neutered in the us.
>
> --
> Stu, Dawn & Hunter West
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stuwest
JH
Posts:39
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| 07/22/2008 5:48 PM |
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| i wasn't talkng about the WeekendWarrior dogs, jere.
i was talking about the $500-$2000 pups that are health cleared by vets.
i have not been able to find any claims on the HSUS or AVA sites.
Stu, Dawn & Hunter West
Founder, Pointing Labradors
"Letting Labs Point the Way!"
Alma Bottom Pointing Labradors
N4758 350th Street, Elmwood, WI 54740
(715) 639-3900 h&w (715)684-9892 cell
StuWest@AlmaBottom.com www.AlmaBottom.com
Jere Murray wrote:
> Can you cite any official statistics to support that claim?
>
> I don't believe it for even the briefest of moments.
>
> If it were true there would be next to no unwanted puppies showing up in the
> multitudinous "shelters" all over the country.
>
> Jere
>
>
>> nearly all our dogs are spayed or neutered in the us.
>>
>> --
>> Stu, Dawn & Hunter West
>>
>
>
> |
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mcotton
MH
Posts:87
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| 07/23/2008 2:24 AM |
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| Hi Sonia
I believe that pet dogs should be desexed, in this day and age it is easier
on the human and produces less mutts that could end up in the pound.
But I fail to agree that pyometra and mammary tumours are rife because if
they are then what is causing this? It is not in animals best interest to
have a big operation like hystorectomy, it is for us humans ease of
ownership.
I am cynical in that veterinarians use this scare mongering to line their
pockets. Take the vaccinations, for years the caring dog owner has been
saying why vaccinate so often? Now the vets say some of the vaccinations
last 2 years. You can bet your bottom dollar it is more than 2 years but
the drug companies and the vets need our money, a lot more than we do
apparently.
Marg
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soniaskinner
MH
Posts:98
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| 07/23/2008 3:19 AM |
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Hi Marg,
I didn't say that pyometra and mammary tumours were rife because bitches are
not being spayed!! It can happen if they are not, but not if they are! IF a
bitch has a pyometra, it is usually (not always) when the bitch is old, she
then has to withstand a hysterectomy when she very ill. An operation for
removal of mammary tumours is most unpleasant in my experience.
Having worked for a vet, I really don't see that they advocate neutering to
line their pockets, of course there may be some who do. The vets I have
worked for have had enough work without going chasing work. Vets see
young, healthy unwanted dogs coming for euthanasia and that is upsetting.
Re vaccinations, maybe it is the drug companies that are in it for the
money, but if the veterinary surgeon said that the vaccine lasted longer
than the drug companies recommended and a dog died, they would be in deep
trouble. As soon as my vets heard that the distemper vaccine lasted longer,
they immediately took that on board. Remember, we can be told how long a
vaccine lasts, but we do not have to take the dog for vaccination until we
wish to do so, the vets aren't dragging us in by our hair!!
There is an anti-dog lobby in Britain, heaven help us if there were so many
unwanted pups around. I have had a hysterectomy and I can assure you that
bitches do not suffer as much as humans, it is usually all over, done and
dusted for them in a day and then they appear to be back to their normal
selves. It is the owners who have the stress of keeping them quiet for the
next ten days!
Bestest Sonia
> Hi Sonia
>
> I believe that pet dogs should be desexed, in this day and age it is easier
> on the human and produces less mutts that could end up in the pound.
> But I fail to agree that pyometra and mammary tumours are rife because if
> they are then what is causing this? It is not in animals best interest to
> have a big operation like hystorectomy, it is for us humans ease of
> ownership.
>
> I am cynical in that veterinarians use this scare mongering to line their
> pockets. Take the vaccinations, for years the caring dog owner has been
> saying why vaccinate so often? Now the vets say some of the vaccinations
> last 2 years. You can bet your bottom dollar it is more than 2 years but
> the drug companies and the vets need our money, a lot more than we do
> apparently.
>
> Marg
>
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stuwest
JH
Posts:39
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| 07/23/2008 9:56 AM |
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| ditto
i can't remember if jere has had a chance to chew on this before or not,
but why not. every dog deserves a bone.
fwiw chris zinkhas had so much political bull shit dropped on her, she's
back away from the contentions/implications in this article.
i believe, from my experiences with the vet community re frozen meat
diets, that the dogs are the losers in this battle.
*Early Spay-Neuter Considerations
for the Canine Athlete*
*One Veterinarian's Opinion*
/© 2005 Chris Zink DVM, PhD, DACVP/
Those of us with responsibility for the health of canine athletes need
to continually read and evaluate new scientific studies to ensure that
we are taking the most appropriate care of our performance dogs. This
article provides evidence through a number of recent studies to suggest
that veterinarians and owners working with canine athletes should
revisit the standard protocol in which all dogs that are not intended
for breeding are spayed and neutered at or before 6 months of age.
Orthopedic Considerations
A study by Salmeri /et al/ in 1991 found that bitches spayed at 7 weeks
grew significantly taller than those spayed at 7 months, who were taller
than those not spayed (or presumably spayed after the growth plates had
closed).(1) A study of 1444 Golden Retrievers performed in 1998 and 1999
also found bitches and dogs spayed and neutered at less than a year of
age were significantly taller than those spayed or neutered at more than
a year of age.(2) The sex hormones, by communicating with a number of
other growth-related hormones, promote the closure of the growth plates
at puberty (3), so the bones of dogs or bitches neutered or spayed
before puberty continue to grow. Dogs that have been spayed or neutered
well before puberty can frequently be identified by their longer limbs,
lighter bone structure, narrow chests and narrow skulls. This abnormal
growth frequently results in significant alterations in body proportions
and particularly the lengths (and therefore weights) of certain bones
relative to others. For example, if the femur has achieved its
genetically determined normal length at 8 months when a dog gets spayed
or neutered, but the tibia, which normally stops growing at 12 to 14
months of age continues to grow, then an abnormal angle may develop at
the stifle. In addition, with the extra growth, the lower leg below the
stifle likely becomes heavier (because it is longer), and may cause
increased stresses on the cranial cruciate ligament. In addition, sex
hormones are critical for achieving peak bone density.(4) These
structural and physiological alterations may be the reason why at least
one recent study showed that spayed and neutered dogs had a higher
incidence of CCL rupture.(5) Another recent study showed that dogs
spayed or neutered before 5 1/2 months had a significantly higher
incidence of hip dysplasia than those spayed or neutered after 5 1/2
months of age, although it should be noted that in this study there were
no standard criteria for the diagnosis of hip dysplasia.(6) Nonetheless,
breeders of purebred dogs should be cognizant of these studies and
should consider whether or not pups they bred were spayed or neutered
when considering breeding decisions.
Cancer Considerations
A retrospective study of cardiac tumors in dogs showed that there was a
5 times greater risk of hemangiosarcoma, one of the three most common
cancers in dogs, in spayed bitches than intact bitches and a 2.4 times
greater risk of hemangiosarcoma in neutered dogs as compared to intact
males.(7) A study of 3218 dogs demonstrated that dogs that were neutered
before a year of age had a significantly increased chance of developing
bone cancer.(8) A separate study showed that neutered dogs had a
two-fold higher risk of developing bone cancer.(9) Despite the common
belief that neutering dogs helps prevent prostate cancer, at least one
study suggests that neutering provides no benefit.(10) There certainly
is evidence of a slightly increased risk of mammary cancer in female
dogs after one heat cycle, and for increased risk with each subsequent
heat. While about 30 % of mammary cancers are malignant, as in humans,
when caught and surgically removed early the prognosis is very good.(12)
Luckily, canine athletes are handled frequently and
generally receive prompt veterinary care.
Behavioral Considerations
The study that identified a higher incidence of cranial cruciate
ligament rupture in spayed or neutered dogs also identified an increased
incidence of sexual behaviors in males and females that were neutered
early.(5) Further, the study that identified a higher incidence of hip
dysplasia in dogs neutered or spayed before 5 1/2 months also showed
that early age gonadectomy was associated with an increased incidence of
noise phobias and undesirable sexual behaviors.(6) A recent report of
the American Kennel Club Canine Health Foundation reported significantly
more behavioral problems in spayed and neutered bitches and dogs. The
most commonly observed behavioral problem in spayed females was fearful
behavior and the most common problem in males was aggression.(12)
Other Health Considerations
A number of studies have shown that there is an increase in the
incidence of female urinary incontinence in dogs spayed early (13),
although this finding has not been universal. Certainly there is
evidence that ovarian hormones are critical for maintenance of genital
tissue structure and contractility.(14, 15) Neutering also has been
associated with an increased likelihood of urethral sphincter
incontinence in males.(16) This problem is an inconvenience, and not
usually life-threatening, but nonetheless one that requires the dog to
be medicated for life. A health survey of several thousand Golden
Retrievers showed that spayed or neutered dogs were more likely to
develop hypothyroidism.(2) This study is consistent with the results of
another study in which neutering and spaying was determined to be the
most significant gender-associated risk factor for development of
hypothyroidism.(17) Infectious diseases were more common in dogs that
were spayed or neutered at 24 weeks or less as opposed to those
undergoing gonadectomy at more than 24 weeks.(18) Finally, the AKC-CHF
report demonstrated a higher incidence of adverse reactions to vaccines
in neutered dogs as compared to intact.(12)
I have gathered these studies to show that our practice of routinely
spaying or neutering every dog at or before the age of 6 months is not a
black-and-white issue. Clearly more studies need to be done to evaluate
the effects of prepubertal spaying and neutering, particularly in canine
athletes.
Currently, I have significant concerns with spaying or neutering canine
athletes before puberty. But of course, there is the pet overpopulation
problem. How can we prevent the production of unwanted dogs while still
leaving the gonads to produce the hormones that are so important to
canine growth and development? One answer would be to perform
vasectomies in males and tubal ligation in females, to be followed after
maturity by ovariohysterectomy in females to prevent mammary cancer and
pyometra. One possible disadvantage is that vasectomy does not prevent
some unwanted behaviors associated with males such as marking and
humping. On the other hand, females and neutered males frequently
participate in these behaviors too. Really, training is the best
solution for these issues. Another possible disadvantage is finding a
veterinarian who is experienced in performing these procedures.
Nonetheless, some do, and if the procedures were in greater demand, more
veterinarians would learn them.
I believe it is important that we assess each situation individually.
For canine athletes, I currently recommend that dogs and bitches be
spayed or neutered after 14 months of age.
References:
1. Salmeri KR, Bloomberg MS, Scruggs SL, Shille V.. Gonadectomy in
immature dogs: effects on skeletal, physical, and behavioral
development. /JAVMA/ 1991;198:1193-1203
2. http://www.grca.org/healthsurvey.pdf
3. Grumbach MM. Estrogen, bone, growth and sex: a sea change in
conventional wisdom. /J Pediatr Endocrinol Metab./ 2000;13 Suppl 6:1439-55.
4. Gilsanz V, Roe TF, Gibbens DT, Schulz EE, Carlson ME, Gonzalez
O, Boechat MI. Effect of sex steroids on peak bone density of growing
rabbits. /Am J Physiol./ 1988 Oct;255(4 Pt 1):E416-21.
5. Slauterbeck JR, Pankratz K, Xu KT, Bozeman SC, Hardy DM. Canine
ovariohysterectomy and orchiectomy increases the prevalence of ACL
injury. /Clin Orthop Relat Res./ 2004 Dec;(429):301-5.
6. Spain CV, Scarlett JM, Houpt KA. Long-term risks and benefits of
early-age gonadectomy in dogs. /JAVMA/ 2004;224:380-387.
7. Ware WA, Hopper DL. Cardiac tumors in dogs: 1982-1995. /J Vet
Intern Med/ 1999 Mar-Apr;13(2):95-103
8. Cooley DM, Beranek BC, Schlittler DL, Glickman NW, Glickman LT,
Waters D, /Cancer Epidemiol Biomarkers Prev. /2002 Nov;11(11):1434-40
9. Ru G, Terracini B, Glickman LT. Host related risk factors for
canine osteosarcoma. /Vet J. /1998 Jul;156(1):31-9.
1. Obradovich J, Walshaw R, Goullaud E. The influence of castration
on the development of prostatic carcinoma in the dog. 43 cases
(1978-1985). /J Vet Intern Med/ 1987 Oct-Dec;1(4):183-7
2.
http://www.akcchf.org/pdfs/whitepapers/Biennial_National_Parent_Club_Canine_Health_Conference.pdf
3. Meuten DJ. /Tumors in Domestic Animals/. 4th Edn. Iowa State
Press, Blackwell Publishing Company, Ames, Iowa, p. 575
4. Stocklin-Gautschi NM, Hassig M, Reichler IM, Hubler M, Arnold S.
The relationship of urinary incontinence to early spaying in bitches.
/J. Reprod. Fertil./ Suppl. 57:233-6, 2001
5. Pessina MA, Hoyt RF Jr, Goldstein I, Traish AM. Differential
effects of estradiol, progesterone, and testosterone on vaginal
structural integrity. /Endocrinology/. 2006 Jan;147(1):61-9.
6. Kim NN, Min K, Pessina MA, Munarriz R, Goldstein I, Traish AM.
Effects of ovariectomy and steroid hormones on vaginal smooth muscle
contractility. /Int J Impot Res/. 2004 Feb;16(1):43-50.
7. Aaron A, Eggleton K, Power C, Holt PE. Urethral sphincter
mechanism incompetence in male dogs: a retrospective analysis of 54
cases. /Vet Rec/. 139:542-6, 1996
8. Panciera DL. Hypothyroidism in dogs: 66 cases (1987-1992). /J.
Am. Vet. Med. Assoc./, 204:761-7 1994
9. Howe LM, Slater MR, Boothe HW, Hobson HP, Holcom JL, Spann AC.
Long-term outcome of gonadectomy performed at an early age or
traditional age in dogs. /J Am Vet Med Assoc. /2001 Jan 15;218(2):217-21.
This article is available for download in Adobe Acrobat PDF format Early
Spay Considerations (pdf).
Stu, Dawn & Hunter West
Founder, Pointing Labradors
"Letting Labs Point the Way!"
Alma Bottom Pointing Labradors
N4758 350th Street, Elmwood, WI 54740
(715) 639-3900 h&w (715)684-9892 cell
StuWest@AlmaBottom.com www.AlmaBottom.com
Margaret Cotton wrote:
> Hi Sonia
>
> I believe that pet dogs should be desexed, in this day and age it is
> easier on the human and produces less mutts that could end up in the
> pound.
> But I fail to agree that pyometra and mammary tumours are rife because
> if they are then what is causing this? It is not in animals best
> interest to have a big operation like hystorectomy, it is for us
> humans ease of ownership.
>
> I am cynical in that veterinarians use this scare mongering to line
> their pockets. Take the vaccinations, for years the caring dog owner
> has been saying why vaccinate so often? Now the vets say some of the
> vaccinations last 2 years. You can bet your bottom dollar it is more
> than 2 years but the drug companies and the vets need our money, a lot
> more than we do apparently.
>
> Marg |
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soniaskinner
MH
Posts:98
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| 07/23/2008 11:11 AM |
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Although I have had my dog and bitches neutered, I would not consider under
any circumstances having them done at such a young age, I feel they should
be sexually mature. So far, in Britain, dogs/bitches are not neutered under
5/6 months of age as far as I know.
Sonia
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stuwest
JH
Posts:39
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| 07/23/2008 11:36 AM |
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| the dog isn't done growing until 2-3 YEARS of age.
British & American law allows removal of the principal hormonal source
at 5 MONTHS of age and you feel that is fine??
They are sexually MATURE at 5 MONTHS of age because 30% of them have had
a puppy menses??
Stu, Dawn & Hunter West
Founder, Pointing Labradors
"Letting Labs Point the Way!"
Alma Bottom Pointing Labradors
N4758 350th Street, Elmwood, WI 54740
(715) 639-3900 h&w (715)684-9892 cell
StuWest@AlmaBottom.com www.AlmaBottom.com
Sonia Skinner wrote:
> Although I have had my dog and bitches neutered, I would not consider under
> any circumstances having them done at such a young age, I feel they should
> be sexually mature. So far, in Britain, dogs/bitches are not neutered under
> 5/6 months of age as far as I know.
>
> Sonia
>
>
>
>
> |
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dancindollpntrs
Posts:9
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| 07/23/2008 1:14 PM |
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I usually lurk on this list; having said that, I'd like to offer my two cents worth of opinion here.
In the US, about ten years ago, the number of animals in kill shelters were at their highest numbers, and agencies, as well as local governements, were desperately struggling to decrease/minimize the number of unwanted animals of reproductive age that were being euthanized on a daily basis.
Many shelters started 'experimental' programs in which young, very young (ie, 8 weeks of age) animals were neutered/spayed prior to being placed for adoption. There wasn't a lot of scientific data available on the long-term repercussions of such procedures, and, for the average pet owner, the influence of the endocrine system on health wasn't, and continues to be, not of major interest or concern. What was important, was that shelters saw an almost immediate effect on their shelter populations; while the numbers continue to be unacceptable, they are, at least, manageable. which meant the practice was acceptable.
For persons who breed and participate in competitive events, the pros and cons of altering a pet have different ramifications. We all now know, pretty much, that hormones play an important part in the growth and development of animals; and that most don't meet their mature potential until they are 2-3 years of age, and that altering a pet has the potential to adversely affect its performance.
The bottom line is, in the US, there are no laws that require a pet owner to alter their pet. It is soley a decision made at the discretion of the owner, and the owner's vet. With many friends who are practicing veterinarians, I would say that most vets prefer NOT to alter young dogs, but do so at the request of their clients, because they have seen, firsthand, what happens when unplanned breedings occur. Although early altering of pets may affect their long-term growth and development, it often does so in ways not easily seen by the average pet owner.
Despite what your personal experiences may be, pyrometra and mammary gland cancer are huge risks for older, unaltered female canines. Oh-mammary cancer, just so you know, can and does occur after spaying--like women, it's luck of the draw on which bitch gets it and which bitch doesn't. Having known several persons who have lost their beloved companions to pyrometra, I would say the risk of spaying a bitch at a younger age is far less dangerous than allowing a bitch to remain intact and suffer pyrometra.
Because the law doesn't prohibit the altering of pets at a young age doesn't mean it's right or okay to do so, but one has to look at the big picture and put the circumstances relating to such decisions into perspective. That means compromising, and while it isn't always easy to do, the greater good must be considered.
I realize these comments can lead to all kinds of discussions about who should or shouldn't breed, but that's another discussion for another time. I just sensed some hostility in the curt comments back and forth on this list, and thought I'd chime in. Usually, people on this list live and let live, as it were, when it comes to differing opinions, which is something I kinda like about it.
Laurie McCarty,
Dancindoll Pointers
Maryland, USA
-----Original Message-----
From: Stu West
To: working-gundog@web.whc.net
Sent: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 1:24 pm
Subject: Re: [working-gundog] spayed/neutered dogs in Europe
the dog isn't done growing until 2-3 YEARS of age.
British & American law allows removal of the principal hormonal source at 5 MONTHS of age and you feel that is fine??
They are sexually MATURE at 5 MONTHS of age because 30% of them have had a puppy menses??
Stu, Dawn & Hunter West Founder, Pointing Labradors "Letting Labs Point the Way!"
Alma Bottom Pointing Labradors
N4758 350th Street, Elmwood, WI 54740
(715) 639-3900 h&w (715)684-9892 cell StuWest@AlmaBottom.com www.AlmaBottom.com
Sonia Skinner wrote:
> Although I have had my dog and bitches neutered, I would not consider under
> any circumstances having them done at such a young age, I feel they should
> be sexually mature. So far, in Britain, dogs/bitches are not neutered under
> 5/6 months of age as far as I know.
>
> Sonia
>
>
>
>
> |
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jmurr
MH
Posts:158
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| 07/23/2008 1:21 PM |
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| I am not about to get into this one - I have quite enough alligators right here at
home to fend off right now!!
I have seen Chris Zinc's article and also refer folks to the review of the
literature by Laura J. Sanborn, titled "Long-Term Health Risks and Benefits
Associated with Spay-Neuter in Dogs" (master's degree thesis?) Google will find it
for you. I think the
latest version is dated May 14, 2007 (if anyone finds a newer one - post it up,
please).
You'll probably find rebuttals to both articles in your search.
If you read the stuff google brings up in a spay neuter search carefully, you'll
also find several philosophical viewpoints and vested interests represented. Much
hysteria floods the shelves as well.
It's a difficult subject to get a rational picture of - much more chaff than wheat
there.
Jere
> ditto
> i can't remember if jere has had a chance to chew on this before or not,
> but why not. every dog deserves a bone.
> Stu, Dawn & Hunter West
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soniaskinner
MH
Posts:98
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| 07/23/2008 3:40 PM |
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|
> the dog isn't done growing until 2-3 YEARS of age.
> British & American law allows removal of the principal hormonal source
> at 5 MONTHS of age and you feel that is fine??
> They are sexually MATURE at 5 MONTHS of age because 30% of them have had
> a puppy menses??
OK Stu - sorry. I felt it was fine to neuter at over 6 months of age as
opposed to 8 weeks or so, which seems to be the thing in America at the
moment. I consider them sexually mature after the first season, but not
necessarily mature mentally.
Sonia
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soniaskinner
MH
Posts:98
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| 07/23/2008 3:40 PM |
|
Re: [working-gundog] spayed/neutered dogs in Europe
I think you have said what I wanted to say in a much better way. It doesn’t bother me one way or the other whether people have their dogs neutered or not, I just choose to have mine neutered. I have friends whose dogs are not neutered and it isn’t an issue between us, indeed it isn’t even mentioned,
Some chap was so impressed with my Labrador’s working ability and vim and vigour that he wanted to use him as stud, sadly too late I certainly feel it is kinder to have a male neutered if he is not allowed to ever mate; can you men imagine being in a room of beautiful, naked females, all eager to be mated and you are denied this
Sonia
On 23/7/08 20:00, "dancindollpntrs@aol.com" wrote:
I usually lurk on this list; having said that, I'd like to offer my two cents worth of opinion here.
In the US, about ten years ago, the number of animals in kill shelters were at their highest numbers, and agencies, as well as local governements, were desperately struggling to decrease/minimize the number of unwanted animals of reproductive age that were being euthanized on a daily basis.
Many shelters started 'experimental' programs in which young, very young (ie, 8 weeks of age) animals were neutered/spayed prior to being placed for adoption. There wasn't a lot of scientific data available on the long-term repercussions of such procedures, and, for the average pet owner, the influence of the endocrine system on health wasn't, and continues to be, not of major interest or concern. What was important, was that shelters saw an almost immediate effect on their shelter populations; while the numbers continue to be unacceptable, they are, at least, manageable. which meant the practice was acceptable.
For persons who breed and participate in competitive events, the pros and cons of altering a pet have different ramifications. We all now know, pretty much, that hormones play an important part in the growth and development of animals; and that most don't meet their mature potential until they are 2-3 years of age, and that altering a pet has the potential to adversely affect its performance.
The bottom line is, in the US, there are no laws that require a pet owner to alter their pet. It is soley a decision made at the discretion of the owner, and the owner's vet. With many friends who are practicing veterinarians, I would say that most vets prefer NOT to alter young dogs, but do so at the request of their clients, because they have seen, firsthand, what happens when unplanned breedings occur. Although early altering of pets may affect their long-term growth and development, it often does so in ways not easily seen by the average pet owner.
Despite what your personal experiences may be, pyrometra and mammary gland cancer are huge risks for older, unaltered female canines. Oh-mammary cancer, just so you know, can and does occur after spaying--like women, it's luck of the draw on which bitch gets it and which bitch doesn't. Having known several persons who have lost their beloved companions to pyrometra, I would say the risk of spaying a bitch at a younger age is far less dangerous than allowing a bitch to remain intact and suffer pyrometra.
Because the law doesn't prohibit the altering of pets at a young age doesn't mean it's right or okay to do so, but one has to look at the big picture and put the circumstances relating to such decisions into perspective. That means compromising, and while it isn't always easy to do, the greater good must be considered.
I realize these comments can lead to all kinds of discussions about who should or shouldn't breed, but that's another discussion for another time. I just sensed some hostility in the curt comments back and forth on this list, and thought I'd chime in. Usually, people on this list live and let live, as it were, when it comes to differing opinions, which is something I kinda like about it.
Laurie McCarty,
Dancindoll Pointers
Maryland, USA
-----Original Message-----
From: Stu West
To: working-gundog@web.whc.net
Sent: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 1:24 pm
Subject: Re: [working-gundog] spayed/neutered dogs in Europe
the dog isn't done growing until 2-3 YEARS of age.
British & American law allows removal of the principal hormonal source at 5 MONTHS of age and you feel that is fine??
They are sexually MATURE at 5 MONTHS of age because 30% of them have had a puppy menses??
Stu, Dawn & Hunter West Founder, Pointing Labradors "Letting Labs Point the Way!"
Alma Bottom Pointing Labradors
N4758 350th Street, Elmwood, WI 54740
(715) 639-3900 h&w (715)684-9892 cell StuWest@AlmaBottom.com www.AlmaBottom.com
Sonia Skinner wrote:
> Although I have had my dog and bitches neutered, I would not consider under
> any circumstances having them done at such a young age, I feel they should
> be sexually mature. So far, in Britain, dogs/bitches are not neutered under
> 5/6 months of age as far as I know.
>
> Sonia
>
>
>
>
>
The Famous, the Infamous, the Lame - in your browser. Get the TMZ Toolbar Now !
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lameduck
SH
Posts:44
|
| 07/23/2008 4:43 PM |
|
|
Re: [working-gundog] spayed/neutered dogs in Europe
I think I know the feeling!!!!!!! My
friend took a horse to have it gilded last week and he said they cut open the
sack and took out the cods and hooked them on a 1/2 inch drill and turned it on
and reeled the cords out clear to the head. OUCH. DAMN
Ron
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 4:33
PM
Subject: Re: [working-gundog]
spayed/neutered dogs in Europe
I think you have said what I wanted to say in a
much better way. It doesnt bother me one way or the other whether people have
their dogs neutered or not, I just choose to have mine neutered. I have
friends whose dogs are not neutered and it isnt an issue between us, indeed
it isnt even mentioned,
Some chap was so impressed with my Labradors
working ability and vim and vigour that he wanted to use him as stud,
sadly too late I certainly feel it is kinder to have a male neutered
if he is not allowed to ever mate; can you men imagine being in a room of
beautiful, naked females, all eager to be mated and you are denied
this
Sonia
On 23/7/08 20:00, "dancindollpntrs@aol.com"
wrote:
I usually lurk on this list; having said that, I'd
like to offer my two cents worth of opinion here.
In the US, about ten
years ago, the number of animals in kill shelters were at their highest
numbers, and agencies, as well as local governements, were desperately
struggling to decrease/minimize the number of unwanted animals of
reproductive age that were being euthanized on a daily basis.
Many
shelters started 'experimental' programs in which young, very young (ie, 8
weeks of age) animals were neutered/spayed prior to being placed for
adoption. There wasn't a lot of scientific data available on the
long-term repercussions of such procedures, and, for the average pet owner,
the influence of the endocrine system on health wasn't, and continues to be,
not of major interest or concern. What was important, was that
shelters saw an almost immediate effect on their shelter populations; while
the numbers continue to be unacceptable, they are, at least, manageable.
which meant the practice was acceptable.
For persons who breed and
participate in competitive events, the pros and cons of altering a pet have
different ramifications. We all now know, pretty much, that hormones
play an important part in the growth and development of animals; and that
most don't meet their mature potential until they are 2-3 years of age, and
that altering a pet has the potential to adversely affect its performance.
The bottom line is, in the US, there are no laws that require
a pet owner to alter their pet. It is soley a decision made at the
discretion of the owner, and the owner's vet. With many friends who
are practicing veterinarians, I would say that most vets prefer NOT to alter
young dogs, but do so at the request of their clients, because they have
seen, firsthand, what happens when unplanned breedings occur. Although
early altering of pets may affect their long-term growth and development, it
often does so in ways not easily seen by the average pet owner.
Despite what your personal experiences may be, pyrometra and
mammary gland cancer are huge risks for older, unaltered female canines.
Oh-mammary cancer, just so you know, can and does occur after
spaying--like women, it's luck of the draw on which bitch gets it and which
bitch doesn't. Having known several persons who have lost their
beloved companions to pyrometra, I would say the risk of spaying a bitch at
a younger age is far less dangerous than allowing a bitch to remain intact
and suffer pyrometra.
Because the law doesn't prohibit the
altering of pets at a young age doesn't mean it's right or okay to do so,
but one has to look at the big picture and put the circumstances relating to
such decisions into perspective. That means compromising, and while it
isn't always easy to do, the greater good must be considered.
I
realize these comments can lead to all kinds of discussions about who should
or shouldn't breed, but that's another discussion for another time. I just
sensed some hostility in the curt comments back and forth on this list, and
thought I'd chime in. Usually, people on this list live and let live,
as it were, when it comes to differing opinions, which is something I kinda
like about it.
Laurie McCarty,
Dancindoll Pointers
Maryland,
USA
-----Original Message-----
From: Stu West
To: working-gundog@web.whc.net
Sent:
Wed, 23 Jul 2008 1:24 pm
Subject: Re: [working-gundog] spayed/neutered
dogs in Europe
the dog isn't done growing until 2-3 YEARS of age.
British & American law allows removal of the principal hormonal
source at 5 MONTHS of age and you feel that is fine??
They are sexually
MATURE at 5 MONTHS of age because 30% of them have had a puppy menses??
Stu, Dawn & Hunter West Founder, Pointing Labradors
"Letting Labs Point the Way!"
Alma Bottom Pointing Labradors
N4758
350th Street, Elmwood, WI 54740
(715) 639-3900 h&w (715)684-9892
cell StuWest@AlmaBottom.com www.AlmaBottom.com
Sonia
Skinner wrote:
> Although I have had my dog and bitches neutered, I
would not consider under
> any circumstances having them done at such
a young age, I feel they should
> be sexually mature. So far, in
Britain, dogs/bitches are not neutered under
> 5/6 months of age as
far as I know.
>
> Sonia
>
>
>
>
>
The Famous, the Infamous, the Lame - in your browser. Get the TMZ Toolbar
Now
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