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Subject: [working-gundog] Socialisation
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soniaskinnerUser is Offline

MH
MH
Posts:98


07/28/2007 2:45 AM  
Cj and others, I have come up with a problem and to me a worrying one. My 16 month old Labrador has always been a bit nervous of some people, others he loves. You may remember he had to be confined to a crate at 16 weeks for 4 weeks and then the following four weeks confined to a room, so he lost valuable socialisation time. During the floods I took him to the churchyard to watch and to my consternation he barked and lunged at three separate people. Then to my horror a couple of days ago he was "scared" by suddenly coming across (they were round a corner on a narrow path on a common) a woman and two small children, my GSP had barked and he was alerted and ran off from my side and then barked fiercely at these children who were very frightened and crying. I am now very nervous of taking him out. He is a kind dog normally with no sign of aggression in the house. Is this problem fixable or am I stuck with it. I chose this dog because his Mother had such a superb temperament and all the breeder's dogs were the same. There were three pups in my dog's litter and there was an element of nervousness with mine and also the bitch, in as much as they would hide behind the bins and then gradually come out and be friendly. The other Lab was bold with no sign of nervousness. This Lab wasn't homed until he was about 5/6 months old and was returned to the breeder because he barked at people. He has now been rehomed and I have not heard any more. The bitch was kept by the breeder and is nervous, but she does not show fear aggression. The Sire is a FTch and so is the Grandsire. The Labs are all working dogs. My dog is approaching adolescence, could this contribute to the problem? He has been castrated (sorry!). To think I chose a Lab after 5 GSP's because I wanted something a little easier!! Sonia On 12/7/07 20:42, "Jere Murray" wrote: > We're trying together. I'll see what I can come up with to report in the next > few > days. > > Most of what I've found so far happens (perhaps) early in fetal development so > propagation into germ cells is probably by standard cell differentiation > processes. > > The behaviorially caused effects that are propagated to future generations are > the > real interesting ones. If these do exist, there must be a fundamental > difference > between them and standard learning. > > There are only degrees of ignorance. When new windows appear - everyone is > ignorant. > > jere >> >> True. I am still trying to understand the transmission of epigenetic >> effects to offspring. How's that for ignorance? >> Cj >> >> > >
soniaskinnerUser is Offline

MH
MH
Posts:98


07/28/2007 3:51 AM  
On 28/7/07 09:30, "Sonia Skinner" wrote: > > > Cj and others, > > I have come up with a problem and to me a worrying one. My 16 month old > Labrador has always been a bit nervous of some people, others he loves. You > may remember he had to be confined to a crate at 16 weeks for 4 weeks and > then the following four weeks confined to a room, so he lost valuable > socialisation time. I did not mean to have the "stuff" about epigentics at the the end of my query, I wasn't relating my problem to that and didn't realise it was there until I received my own email! Sonia
stuwestUser is Offline

JH
JH
Posts:39


07/28/2007 7:45 AM  
Sonia- You may want to try St. John's Wort on the pup. About 200-300 units per 50 # dog. I'm a pill nut (I'll even admit it in public). A client had a dog that was shy after it got on site. The transfer from the kennel environment here to the open environment of the ohme + 5 acres to run was too scary for it. So the vet down there put it on 200 units of SJW and the pup's demeanor changed 180 degrees. We have this problem (all kennels do) routinely so I started it on one of my fearful dogs. I got about 10 days into the treatment and she also changed dramatically. Try it on your pup. Might work. I don't believe it can hurt. Stu Stu, Dawn & Hunter West Founder, Pointing Labradors "Letting Labs Point the Way!" Alma Bottom Pointing Labradors N4758 350th Street, Elmwood, WI 54740 (715) 639-3900 h&w (715)684-9892 cell StuWest@AlmaBottom.com www.AlmaBottom.com Sonia Skinner wrote: > > On 28/7/07 09:30, "Sonia Skinner" wrote: > > >> Cj and others, >> >> I have come up with a problem and to me a worrying one. My 16 month old >> Labrador has always been a bit nervous of some people, others he loves. You >> may remember he had to be confined to a crate at 16 weeks for 4 weeks and >> then the following four weeks confined to a room, so he lost valuable >> socialisation time. >> > > > I did not mean to have the "stuff" about epigentics at the the end of my > query, I wasn't relating my problem to that and didn't realise it was there > until I received my own email! > > Sonia > > > >
rospiganUser is Offline

MH
MH
Posts:372


07/28/2007 11:56 AM  
Sonia wrote:
> I have come up with a problem and to me a worrying one. My 16 month old
> Labrador has always been a bit nervous of some people, others he loves.  You
> may remember he had to be confined to a crate at 16 weeks for 4 weeks and
> then the following four weeks confined to a room, so he lost valuable
> socialisation time.>

I can only give some general advice since it takes more than an e-mail contact to be entirely sure about someone's dog. To start with the nice pedigree only gives you a fair chance to get a mentally and physically sound dog, better chance than average, so to say.(BTW do you have this "so to say" expression in English?) Even the best litter can contain a "black" puppy, when a semen meets the egg cell there are some 5 million or something possible combinations of DNA. I do not know about your puppy, I just mention the possibility.
 
From what I have seen from the "problematic" dogs that comes to our obedience classes they can all, with very few exceptions, be cured by depriving them of the leadership over their pack. If they still, after some demanding obedience work for a length of time, are problematic then it can be suspected that they have some kind of a mental fault. What a "mental fault" is depends to some extent of what you expect from a dog. A "fault" in one dog can be an advantage in another depending of the duty they have to do.
 
When we speak about birddogs and retrievers we do not expect them to have, and do not want them to have, agressivity. However they sometimes or often, depending of breeding lines, have a poor nerve stability. We often do the mistake to in those cases to believe that the dog has inherited agressivity but most often it does not have it. What it does when it meets a strange signal, that could be a lively child on the street, it can not make a fast and correct evaluation of the situation but becomes scared and reacts with either escape or agressivity (that is a behaviour, by definition; with a purpose to increase the distance to an individual or a group of individuals).
 
My advice is to, in the long term, increase the demands in the obedience. A lot of heeling work with very high demands for very fast reactions to commands. The dog should not be in charge of anything! You take care of strangers you meet on the streets, the dog should not even be allowed to greet them even if you stand and talk to each other for an hour. It should sit beside you or better yet, behind you. Go to an Irish retriever trainer, they know how to do it!
 
I believe you also want an instant solution. Do this:
 
You need an assistant that is rather fit when it comes to "timing". Someone who knows dogs to some degree and who is very resolute and absolutely not hesitating in any situation. Take one of these plastic bags you use to carry home food in from the supermarket. Put in a suitable number of empty tins, try out the number of tins so that when you throw the bag down the road you will get as much rattle and noise as possible. Do not let the dog see or hear your experiments. Another option is a big fistful of steel chain of some kind.
 
Then you need children that are used to dogs. If the dog knows the children then make the exercise with the children downwind. They could also be dressed like witches or something to make sure the dog does not know them. Tell the children to move and behave in such away that the child did when attacked by your dog.
 
Now you must put everything together. On some empty road arrange so that the children, coming from the downwind direction, will meet you and your assistant at some point. You and your assistant will walk towards the children, who behaves according to your instructions and are dressed in an unusual way, with the dog on a long lead. Your assistant will carry the bag with tins or the chain, ready to throw it at the dog when the timing is correct. The children should walk on one side of the road, you and your dog at heel on the other.
 
Your assistant must be ready to throw the bag or chain just after the dog has started to attack and not before you have shouted a "No!". The dog must be given the needed fractions of a second to charge until it has come so much away from you so that it does not see the throw of the bag or chain.
 
There are 3 steps: Attempt to attack - NO! - throw. No hesitation must be involved so better find a way to train this a little. The assistant should throw the bag or chain on the dog, it does not harm in any way but causes the needed discomfort and disturbance to discourage the dog from doing the attack again. The children should continue to walk without taking any notice whatsoever of the dog. Remember the dog is on a long lead and you can control it with the lead if needed.
 
If things goes like I believe they will the dog will stop immediately. Precisely at that moment call the dog back to heel. Do not praise it in anyway, just make sure it walks to heel. After some 50 or 100 meters turn and redo the meeting, prepared to throw at the dog again (of course your assistant will pick up the bag or chain and be ready for some more fun at any instant).
 
 If the next meeting goes OK, then you can give the dog a bit of praise. Now you can plan for arranged meetings of other objects of interest for the dog, if needed. Just make sure everyone knows precisely what to do and do not count the timing in seconds but in fractiones of seconds!
 
Just remember to keep the leadership over the dog in the future. The dog is not the Alpha, you are. The Alpha takes care of the strangers, not the second one in the pack.
 
I am not sure I have made myself clear enough but you are of course well-come to ask for more.
 
Torsti
Borta Med Vindens Kennel
"Ask not what your dog can do for you.
Ask what you can do for your dog."
www.rospigan.net
soniaskinnerUser is Offline

MH
MH
Posts:98


07/28/2007 12:27 PM  
Thank you Stu for that idea. You say 200-300 units per 50 # Does that character mean pounds? If so are American pounds the same weight as English pounds (lbs)? I know gallons are different. We now have kilograms here, which I am not used to yet! Sonia
soniaskinnerUser is Offline

MH
MH
Posts:98


07/28/2007 12:27 PM  
Re: [working-gundog] Socialisation

Thank you Torsti for you advice.  The problem is I wouldn’t be able to find any children!  But I could probably set it up with people.  Would it be possible for me to throw the object,  or is it best if it doesn’t come from me?  

I am trying very hard to be the Alpha, he is at the age when he is more of a challenge, will ignore my recall occasionally and is getting slower on his sits.  In the house I am the Alpha, outside I am not quite.  (So therefore I am not Alpha!).

A friend suggested that we take him to a busy shopping precinct so we did this today, masses of children, pushchairs, people.  He behaved like a Guide Dog for the Blind in training, was perfect!  Nothing phased him and when we met a friend  of my companion, he just lay quietly down while they chatted and there were pushchairs, children, adults passing either side of us and he seemed relaxed. Maybe he sees Alice (companion) as Alpha because she is big and strong and it wouldn’t have gone so well if it had been just me?

I find doing obedience exercises quite limiting, seem to run out of ideas quickly; he does walk to heel well and will follow if I turn quickly, should I do lots of heel work with lots of turns and sits etc?

I have thought that it is me that should be in charge and take care of strangers, but once the dog has started this fear behaviour, it transfers to me and I get nervous if I see anyone approaching.

I am encouraged by his behaviour today and by your suggestions.

Your ideas were very clear and much appreciated.

Sonia


rospiganUser is Offline

MH
MH
Posts:372


07/28/2007 2:10 PM  
Re: [working-gundog] Socialisation
>>Thank you Torsti for you advice.  The problem is I wouldn’t be able to find any children!  But I could probably set it up with people.  Would it be possible for me to throw the object,  or is it best if it doesn’t come from me?  >>
Anything he barks at would do. The method is very effective to dogs that only "pretends" to be agressive. In other words most so called "problematic" dogs. You can as well throw the chain or whatever, I just thought it would be easier for you to start with if you had an assistant. The timing is important and not who throws. Just make sure the dog do not see you throwing. If the dog prepares to attack it will be entierly focused on "the enemy" and as soon as it is in front of you it has no chance to see you throwing anything at it. When the situation is over you can pick up the chain without the dog noticing it.
 
 
>>A friend suggested that we take him to a busy shopping precinct so we did this today, masses of children, pushchairs, people.  He behaved like a Guide Dog for the Blind in training, was perfect!  Nothing phased him and when we met a friend  of my companion, he just lay quietly down while they chatted and there were pushchairs, children, adults passing either side of us and he seemed relaxed. Maybe he sees Alice (companion) as Alpha because she is big and strong and it wouldn’t have gone so well if it had been just me?>>
 
Indicates that he is like Briz. Briz does a lot of barking and so called "agressive" behaviour in situations when she thinks she is the boss, like when children or other folks comes near our house. The children are used to her and knows she is totally harmless except for the sound. Empty barrels rattle most when they roll down the hill! Instead the children run up to her and pat her and she becomes confused, the childrens behaviour is not what she expected.
 
I have thought about this for many years and come to the conclusion that Briz does this because it makes her feel strong and in charge. It improves her self esteem and she needs that improvement because she actually is a rather uncertain and soft charachter - remember that even very experienced mentality test leaders have hesitated in giving a judment of her mentality!
 
In a supermarket or similar place Briz would also impress on people with her friendlynes and calmnes. They would think that she is the coolest dog in the world. The fact is that she is smart enough to understand that the "huge pack" is far enough in size for her to control and hence she would not even try!
 
When a small pack of children runs past our house she dares to give herself a bit of courage-raising therapy! The size of our ground around the house is some 40 - 50 000 square meters ( 16 to 20 acres?) and the dogs are free to "guard" it but there is also a path that the children in our village use when they run to the sea to swim.

Anyway Briz mother Foxy has never had the need to control any other creature in the world but me. She has a built in self-confidence that will staunch the bleeding of the worst bad mannered pitbullterrier, without any agressive behaviour needed to be shown. She just stands there and any quarrel will fade away. Unfortuneatly she did not inherit this to her progeny. The reason why she controls me is that she knows I am so easy to control and she can  benefit in so many ways from controlling me... I am the Dames loyal servant!
 
Torsti
Borta Med Vindens Kennel
"Ask not what your dog can do for you.
Ask what you can do for your dog."
www.rospigan.net
jmurrUser is Offline

MH
MH
Posts:158


07/28/2007 4:13 PM  
Sonia, I'm sending some files on "Being a Good Pack Leader" which I extracted from posts to this list a long time ago by private email. The observations you made in the company of your friend are interesting, maybe compelling? Your pup, even with his "rest" hasn't had near the "kennel" experience of the other dogs mentioned here. Even if drugs are ultimately in order, I'm not convinced of that, you need to have an appropriate relationship with the pup. These files should help. Jere
soniaskinnerUser is Offline

MH
MH
Posts:98


07/28/2007 5:36 PM  
Re: [working-gundog] Socialisation  
You sure love Dame Foxy:-)  Has she fully recovered from the major health problem she had?  And how is your health now?

Sonia


rospiganUser is Offline

MH
MH
Posts:372


07/29/2007 7:18 AM  
Re: [working-gundog] Socialisation
Sure and there is this  interdependence between us, two geriatrics understand each other :-)))
 
 Yes, she is fully recovered and she is very fit for her age.
 
My health is OK, I have been promised the by-pass op. august 20. Recovery time after the operation should be 3 - 6 weeks, depends of who you ask, but I believe firmly that I can shoot roe-deer after two weeks provided someone carries them home for me :-))
 
Well, time will tell!
 
Torsti
 
Borta Med Vindens Kennel
"Ask not what your dog can do for you.
Ask what you can do for your dog."
www.rospigan.net
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2007 11:42 PM
Subject: Re: [working-gundog] Socialisation

 
You sure love Dame Foxy:-)  Has she fully recovered from the major health problem she had?  And how is your health now?

Sonia


soniaskinnerUser is Offline

MH
MH
Posts:98


07/29/2007 1:31 PM  
> Sonia, I'm sending some files on "Being a Good Pack Leader" which I extracted > from > posts to this list a long time ago by private email. Thanks again Jere. It was a most interesting read and although I did know it before, I realise that I do not put it into practice completely. I have my weak points and the dog knows it. I used to have a Black and White ticked male GSP who was such a gentleman, never "argued" with me and he was so easy. My Lab is a nice natured dog but strong with it! Sonia
mcottonUser is Offline

MH
MH
Posts:87


07/30/2007 12:54 AM  
I know that male dogs go through some odd temperamental stages. Usually it is 2ay 8 - 10 months and again just before or around 2 years. If he hasn't displayed this behaviour before, maybe he is going through a bit of a "stage" and in a few months it will go away provided of course he doesn't get the chance for it to become ingrained. Dog obedience classes might help with the different dogs, noise and whatnot to dull down his reactions.
soniaskinnerUser is Offline

MH
MH
Posts:98


07/30/2007 5:06 AM  
> I know that male dogs go through some odd temperamental stages. I think he is going through one of those. > > If he hasn't displayed this behaviour before, maybe he is going through a > bit of a "stage" and in a few months it will go away provided of course he > doesn't get the chance for it to become ingrained. I mustn't let it become a fixed behaviour. > > Dog obedience classes might help with the different dogs, noise and whatnot > to dull down his reactions. We go to obedience class which is outside and afterwards people mingle by a caravan drinking tea, this has been very useful to him as he used to lunge but only out of interest not fear aggression. The class doesn't make demands on the pupils even though it is run by an ex police dog trainer but the mingling afterwards has been very helpful as you suggested it could be. He has shown this fear aggression when little and recently, but only with some people, usually the people where I live. At gundog classes he has shown no sign of this behaviour whatsoever. No sign of aggression towards me or my other dogs, in fact he is bottom of the pack with them. Thanks for your suggestions, all gratefully received as I am concerned. Sonia
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