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dise454

MH
Posts:144

05/24/2012 11:12 AM
What do you think of the AKC Owner Handling judging? If the BOB is owner/handled then that is automatically the winner. If not it goes to BOS and then choice of Select. If none of those are eligible then the judge can select one of the other breed dogs. Do you think those dogs will really want to stay in the ring to find out? Sounds a bit confusing to me. Wondering others thoughts? Diane

singltrak

Las Cruces, NM

MH
Posts:1149

05/24/2012 11:13 AM
So it kind of follows the progression used in selecting Best Puppy or Best Bred-By then. Well, sometimes those folks stick around for the competition and sometimes they don't. I'd suppose that it would depend on whether one wanted to be considered for those competitions or not. There is a place to check on the entry form for "eligible for owner-handler competition" , so one would know if they had entered or not. Barbara McNeill (with GRCH CH Fieldfines Pure Gold) went BIS Owner Handler back in early February in AZ. She was pretty excited about it. On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 6:40 AM, wrote: > What do you think of the AKC Owner Handling judging? If the BOB is > owner/handled then that is automatically the winner. If not it goes to BOS > and then choice of Select. If none of those are eligible then the judge > can select one of the other breed dogs. Do you think those dogs will really > want to stay in the ring to find out? > > Sounds a bit confusing to me. Wondering others thoughts? > > Diane -- Phyllis McNall Singltrak Shorthairs AKC Breeder of Merit Las Cruces, NM "Look To 'the Past, Breed For The Future" Unsubscribing: To unsubscribe from the list, send an email message in PLAIN TEXT to gsp-l-request@web.whc.net with message text of "unsubscribe gsp-l you@email.add" (replace the email address with yours, don't include the quotes and note it is a lower case L after the dash in gsp-l).

Look to the Past, Breed for the Future

JJTAMT

JH
Posts:32

05/24/2012 11:13 AM
Diane - Did not see this. Busy with National stuff. By "winner do you mean Best of Winners? John In a message dated 4/4/2012 9:02:11 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, dise454@aol.com writes: What do you think of the AKC Owner Handling judging? If the BOB is owner/handled then that is automatically the winner. If not it goes to BOS and then choice of Select. If none of those are eligible then the judge can select one of the other breed dogs. Do you think those dogs will really want to stay in the ring to find out? Sounds a bit confusing to me. Wondering others thoughts? Diane

Diane.Prohaska User is Offline

Posts:7

05/24/2012 11:13 AM
Then does it go in the judges book so they know if the bob is an owner handler? On another matter, recently had a judge who withheld select from very nice group of specials. From what I heard he just didn't believe in giving select. Has anyone else had this experience? What do you think? -----Original Message----- From: gsp-l-request@shorthairs.net [mailto:gsp-l-request@shorthairs.net] On Behalf Of Phyllis McNall Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2012 9:22 AM To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net Subject: Re: [gsp-l] owner handler judging So it kind of follows the progression used in selecting Best Puppy or Best Bred-By then. Well, sometimes those folks stick around for the competition and sometimes they don't. I'd suppose that it would depend on whether one wanted to be considered for those competitions or not. There is a place to check on the entry form for "eligible for owner-handler competition" , so one would know if they had entered or not. Barbara McNeill (with GRCH CH Fieldfines Pure Gold) went BIS Owner Handler back in early February in AZ. She was pretty excited about it. On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 6:40 AM, wrote: > What do you think of the AKC Owner Handling judging? If the BOB is > owner/handled then that is automatically the winner. If not it goes to BOS > and then choice of Select. If none of those are eligible then the judge > can select one of the other breed dogs. Do you think those dogs will really > want to stay in the ring to find out? > > Sounds a bit confusing to me. Wondering others thoughts? > > Diane -- Phyllis McNall Singltrak Shorthairs AKC Breeder of Merit Las Cruces, NM "Look To 'the Past, Breed For The Future" Unsubscribing: To unsubscribe from the list, send an email message in PLAIN TEXT to gsp-l-request@web.whc.net with message text of "unsubscribe gsp-l you@email.add" (replace the email address with yours, don't include the quotes and note it is a lower case L after the dash in gsp-l). Unsubscribing: To unsubscribe from the list, send an email message in PLAIN TEXT to gsp-l-request@web.whc.net with message text of "unsubscribe gsp-l you@email.add" (replace the email address with yours, don't include the quotes and note it is a lower case L after the dash in gsp-l).

Diane.Prohaska User is Offline

Posts:7

05/24/2012 11:13 AM
="DAV:" xmlns:Repl="http://schemas.microsoft.com/repl/" xmlns:mt="http://schemas.microsoft.com/sharepoint/soap/meetings/" xmlns:x2="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/excel/2003/xml" xmlns:ppda="http://www.passport.com/NameSpace.xsd" xmlns:ois="http://schemas.microsoft.com/sharepoint/soap/ois/" xmlns:dir="http://schemas.microsoft.com/sharepoint/soap/directory/" xmlns:ds="http://www.w3.org/2000/09/xmldsig#" xmlns:dsp="http://schemas.microsoft.com/sharepoint/dsp" xmlns:udc="http://schemas.microsoft.com/data/udc" xmlns:xsd="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema" xmlns:sub="http://schemas.microsoft.com/sharepoint/soap/2002/1/alerts/" xmlns:ec="http://www.w3.org/2001/04/xmlenc#" xmlns:sp="http://schemas.microsoft.com/sharepoint/" xmlns:sps="http://schemas.microsoft.com/sharepoint/soap/" xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance" xmlns:udcs="http://schemas.microsoft.com/data/udc/soap" xmlns:udcxf="http://schemas.microsoft.com/data/udc/xmlfile" xmlns:udcp2p="http://schemas.microsoft.com/data/udc/parttopart" xmlns:wf="http://schemas.microsoft.com/sharepoint/soap/workflow/" xmlns:dsss="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2006/digsig-setup" xmlns:dssi="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2006/digsig" xmlns:mdssi="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/package/2006/digital-signature" xmlns:mver="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/markup-compatibility/2006" xmlns:m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns:mrels="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/package/2006/relationships" xmlns:spwp="http://microsoft.com/sharepoint/webpartpages" xmlns:ex12t="http://schemas.microsoft.com/exchange/services/2006/types" xmlns:ex12m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/exchange/services/2006/messages" xmlns:pptsl="http://schemas.microsoft.com/sharepoint/soap/SlideLibrary/" xmlns:spsl="http://microsoft.com/webservices/SharePointPortalServer/PublishedLinksService" xmlns:Z="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" xmlns:st="" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"> No , it is the best owner handled dog, so if BOB is an owner handled dog then automatically the best o/h’d dog. Diane Prohaska Director, Benefits Tel: (914) 848-4783 Mobile: From: gsp-l-request@shorthairs.net [mailto:gsp-l-request@shorthairs.net] On Behalf Of JJTAMT@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2012 9:23 AM To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net Subject: Re: [gsp-l] owner handler judging Diane - Did not see this. Busy with National stuff. By "winner do you mean Best of Winners? John In a message dated 4/4/2012 9:02:11 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, dise454@aol.com writes: What do you think of the AKC Owner Handling judging? If the BOB is owner/handled then that is automatically the winner. If not it goes to BOS and then choice of Select. If none of those are eligible then the judge can select one of the other breed dogs. Do you think those dogs will really want to stay in the ring to find out? Sounds a bit confusing to me. Wondering others thoughts? Diane

tbrumbaugh User is Offline

MH
Posts:72

05/24/2012 11:13 AM
Hi Diane, I think it is a reasonable idea, but lacking in execution in some major ways. First, it would seem if more judges were willing to put up good owner handler non pro’s, WHEN THEY DO A GOOD JOB AND HAVE A GOOD DOG, this would be less of an issue. Too many judges seem to put up pro’s for a variety of reasons, quality of dog is not number one on the list. I do realize many owner handlers don’t always do the best job but I have seen some “pro’s” do less than a great job too, and still win with less than the best dogs. Politics are what they are. Secondly, I agree with you that if the Bob or ops is an amateur shows over. What I fear even more, is that this will be an excuse to not put amateurs up in regular breed ring. Entries are down, and the AKC needs to drive them up somehow and I understand that, but this seems lacking. Lastly to your point about who will really want to stay in the ring and find out, I agree. If the judge has 8 specials to choose from, puts up a pro for breed and an amateur say for ops, and third and fourth place are amateurs, then I would say you already have your winners. Even if the ops would not be eligible, the 3^rd and 4^th place dogs would be it by default would they not? The only way this would seem to not hold true, would be if the judges dumped all the amateurs, and there were pro’s to win the first 4 or so places. To me the bottom line is, who would want to submit a really nice dog, owner amateur handled, to this risk, of being dumped again? The single best thing that could be done is more education for judges, and to treat every dog the same regardless of who is on the end of the lead. Name withheld due to fear of retribution. Lol. From: gsp-l-request@shorthairs.net [mailto:gsp-l-request@shorthairs.net] On Behalf Of dise454@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2012 8:40 AM To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net Subject: [gsp-l] owner handler judging What do you think of the AKC Owner Handling judging? If the BOB is owner/handled then that is automatically the winner. If not it goes to BOS and then choice of Select. If none of those are eligible then the judge can select one of the other breed dogs. Do you think those dogs will really want to stay in the ring to find out? Sounds a bit confusing to me. Wondering others thoughts? Diane

singltrak

Las Cruces, NM

MH
Posts:1149

05/24/2012 11:13 AM
On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 7:29 AM, Diane Prohaska wrote: > Then does it go in the judges book so they know if the bob is an owner handler? Yes, the judges' book is marked with OwnerHandler . Its a bit less obvious, more like an asterisk or some such but yes,the judge would know who is an owner handler. > > On another matter, recently had a judge who withheld select from very nice group of specials. From what I heard he just didn't believe in giving select. Has anyone else had this experience? What do you think? When they first introduced the Gr Champion series, not a lot of advance info had been given, judges didn't understand it, stewards didn't understand it and a lot of judges either didn't give select because they hated the idea or in one case out here, one judge thought that the select ribbons went to all the winners...even WD and WB, and we were out of select ribbons in his ring by 10 am! Since its the judges' ring to do with as he pleases then if he chooses to award no selects, he chooses to award no selects. That's just how it goes. They can also hand out the ribbons and not mark the box on their book that asks...are these dogs worthy of Grand Champion points also. That way, you get a ribbon, but still not GCh points. Phyllis McNall Singltrak Shorthairs AKC Breeder of Merit Las Cruces, NM "Look To 'the Past, Breed For The Future" Unsubscribing: To unsubscribe from the list, send an email message in PLAIN TEXT to gsp-l-request@web.whc.net with message text of "unsubscribe gsp-l you@email.add" (replace the email address with yours, don't include the quotes and note it is a lower case L after the dash in gsp-l).

Look to the Past, Breed for the Future

denac

JH
Posts:24

05/24/2012 11:13 AM
Yes on the withholding Selects. Seen it happen a few times or only giving out one. From: "Diane Prohaska" To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net Sent: Wednesday, April 4, 2012 9:29:47 AM Subject: RE: [gsp-l] owner handler judging Then does it go in the judges book so they know if the bob is an owner handler? On another matter, recently had a judge who withheld select from very nice group of specials. From what I heard he just didn't believe in giving select. Has anyone else had this experience? What do you think? -----Original Message----- From: gsp-l-request@shorthairs.net [mailto:gsp-l-request@shorthairs.net] On Behalf Of Phyllis McNall Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2012 9:22 AM To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net Subject: Re: [gsp-l] owner handler judging So it kind of follows the progression used in selecting Best Puppy or Best Bred-By then. Well, sometimes those folks stick around for the competition and sometimes they don't. I'd suppose that it would depend on whether one wanted to be considered for those competitions or not. There is a place to check on the entry form for "eligible for owner-handler competition" , so one would know if they had entered or not. Barbara McNeill (with GRCH CH Fieldfines Pure Gold) went BIS Owner Handler back in early February in AZ. She was pretty excited about it. On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 6:40 AM, wrote: > What do you think of the AKC Owner Handling judging? If the BOB is > owner/handled then that is automatically the winner. If not it goes to BOS > and then choice of Select. If none of those are eligible then the judge > can select one of the other breed dogs. Do you think those dogs will really > want to stay in the ring to find out? > > Sounds a bit confusing to me. Wondering others thoughts? > > Diane -- Phyllis McNall Singltrak Shorthairs AKC Breeder of Merit Las Cruces, NM "Look To 'the Past, Breed For The Future" Unsubscribing: To unsubscribe from the list, send an email message in PLAIN TEXT to gsp-l-request@web.whc.net with message text of "unsubscribe gsp-l you@email.add" (replace the email address with yours, don't include the quotes and note it is a lower case L after the dash in gsp-l). Unsubscribing: To unsubscribe from the list, send an email message in PLAIN TEXT to gsp-l-request@web.whc.net with message text of "unsubscribe gsp-l you@email.add" (replace the email address with yours, don't include the quotes and note it is a lower case L after the dash in gsp-l).

denac

JH
Posts:24

05/24/2012 11:13 AM
WOW Phyllis. that was an eye opener on not getting points when you get a Select ....then why even hand them out if they aren't going to mark the box? From: "Phyllis McNall" To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net Sent: Wednesday, April 4, 2012 11:32:16 AM Subject: Re: [gsp-l] owner handler judging On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 7:29 AM, Diane Prohaska wrote: > Then does it go in the judges book so they know if the bob is an owner handler? Yes, the judges' book is marked with OwnerHandler . Its a bit less obvious, more like an asterisk or some such but yes,the judge would know who is an owner handler. > > On another matter, recently had a judge who withheld select from very nice group of specials. From what I heard he just didn't believe in giving select. Has anyone else had this experience? What do you think? When they first introduced the Gr Champion series, not a lot of advance info had been given, judges didn't understand it, stewards didn't understand it and a lot of judges either didn't give select because they hated the idea or in one case out here, one judge thought that the select ribbons went to all the winners...even WD and WB, and we were out of select ribbons in his ring by 10 am! Since its the judges' ring to do with as he pleases then if he chooses to award no selects, he chooses to award no selects. That's just how it goes. They can also hand out the ribbons and not mark the box on their book that asks...are these dogs worthy of Grand Champion points also. That way, you get a ribbon, but still not GCh points. Phyllis McNall Singltrak Shorthairs AKC Breeder of Merit Las Cruces, NM "Look To 'the Past, Breed For The Future" Unsubscribing: To unsubscribe from the list, send an email message in PLAIN TEXT to gsp-l-request@web.whc.net with message text of "unsubscribe gsp-l you@email.add" (replace the email address with yours, don't include the quotes and note it is a lower case L after the dash in gsp-l).

gsp4me1

Posts:10

05/24/2012 11:13 AM
I could not agree more with you regarding owner handlers being passed over for the pros. I don't want to get on a rant but I will. AKC should do it's job of promoting owner/handlers and owner/breeder/handlers and NOT the pros. If it were not for the owner/breeder/handlers there really would not be much reason to have a dog show. These are the people that are the custodians of the breed(s). They should be encouraging responsible pet ownership and the canine-human bond in all aspects whether it be agility, field, confirmation or obedience. If they did this they might possibly encourage more people to show since they could do this as a family acitivity which could then in turn increase entries. Melanie Shufran ---- Terry Brumbaugh wrote: > Hi Diane, > > > > I think it is a reasonable idea, but lacking in execution in some major > ways. First, it would seem if more judges were willing to put up good owner > handler non pro's, WHEN THEY DO A GOOD JOB AND HAVE A GOOD DOG, this would > be less of an issue. Too many judges seem to put up pro's for a variety of > reasons, quality of dog is not number one on the list. I do realize many > owner handlers don't always do the best job but I have seen some "pro's" do > less than a great job too, and still win with less than the best dogs. > Politics are what they are. > > > > Secondly, I agree with you that if the Bob or ops is an amateur shows over. > What I fear even more, is that this will be an excuse to not put amateurs up > in regular breed ring. Entries are down, and the AKC needs to drive them up > somehow and I understand that, but this seems lacking. Lastly to your point > about who will really want to stay in the ring and find out, I agree. If the > judge has 8 specials to choose from, puts up a pro for breed and an amateur > say for ops, and third and fourth place are amateurs, then I would say you > already have your winners. Even if the ops would not be eligible, the 3rd > and 4th place dogs would be it by default would they not? The only way this > would seem to not hold true, would be if the judges dumped all the amateurs, > and there were pro's to win the first 4 or so places. To me the bottom line > is, who would want to submit a really nice dog, owner amateur handled, to > this risk, of being dumped again? > > > > The single best thing that could be done is more education for judges, and > to treat every dog the same regardless of who is on the end of the lead. > > > > Name withheld due to fear of retribution. Lol. > > > > From: gsp-l-request@shorthairs.net [mailto:gsp-l-request@shorthairs.net] On > Behalf Of dise454@aol.com > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2012 8:40 AM > To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net > Subject: [gsp-l] owner handler judging > > > > What do you think of the AKC Owner Handling judging? If the BOB is > owner/handled then that is automatically the winner. If not it goes to BOS > and then choice of Select. If none of those are eligible then the judge > can select one of the other breed dogs. Do you think those dogs will really > want to stay in the ring to find out? > > > > Sounds a bit confusing to me. Wondering others thoughts? > > > > Diane > Unsubscribing: To unsubscribe from the list, send an email message in PLAIN TEXT to gsp-l-request@web.whc.net with message text of "unsubscribe gsp-l you@email.add" (replace the email address with yours, don't include the quotes and note it is a lower case L after the dash in gsp-l).

dise454

MH
Posts:144

05/24/2012 11:13 AM
Dena, the judge didn't hand out the ribbons. -----Original Message----- From: Dena Calivas To: gsp-l Sent: Wed, Apr 4, 2012 6:02 pm Subject: Re: [gsp-l] owner handler judging WOW Phyllis. that was an eye opener on not getting points when you get a Select ....then why even hand them out if they aren't going to mark the box? From: "Phyllis McNall" <singltrakshorthairs@gmail.com> To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net Sent: Wednesday, April 4, 2012 11:32:16 AM Subject: Re: [gsp-l] owner handler judging On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 7:29 AM, Diane Prohaska <iane.Prohaska@pernod-ricard.com">Diane.Prohaska@pernod-ricard.com> wrote: > Then does it go in the judges book so they know if the bob is an owner handler? Yes, the judges' book is marked with OwnerHandler . Its a bit less obvious, more like an asterisk or some such but yes,the judge would know who is an owner handler. > > On another matter, recently had a judge who withheld select from very nice group of specials. From what I heard he just didn't believe in giving select. Has anyone else had this experience? What do you think? When they first introduced the Gr Champion series, not a lot of advance info had been given, judges didn't understand it, stewards didn't understand it and a lot of judges either didn't give select because they hated the idea or in one case out here, one judge thought that the select ribbons went to all the winners...even WD and WB, and we were out of select ribbons in his ring by 10 am! Since its the judges' ring to do with as he pleases then if he chooses to award no selects, he chooses to award no selects. That's just how it goes. They can also hand out the ribbons and not mark the box on their book that asks...are these dogs worthy of Grand Champion points also. That way, you get a ribbon, but still not GCh points. Phyllis McNall Singltrak Shorthairs AKC Breeder of Merit Las Cruces, NM "Look To 'the Past, Breed For The Future" Unsubscribing: To unsubscribe from the list, send an email message in PLAIN TEXT to gsp-l-request@web.whc.net with message text of "unsubscribe gsp-l you@email.add" (replace the email address with yours, don't include the quotes and note it is a lower case L after the dash in gsp-l).

gsp4me

MH
Posts:92

05/24/2012 11:13 AM
I will put my two cents worth here and send a HIGH five to Terry. I am a breeder/owner/handler, been in the breed for about 15 years with a break to raise children and I swore I would not be forced out of showing but it is sure getting close. I love this breed and I am getting soo heartbroken showing in the breed ring. Please do not think I am a novice. I am not kennel blind, I do a decent job, if not better than most in showing my dogs and my dogs are in great condition, etc. I know my dogs faults and understand most of the time when they do not place. I have also spayed and neutered dogs I have finished, knowing just because a dog is a champion, does not mean he/she should be bred. Showing used to be for breeding stock, not any more. The Pros IMO, are taking over and the judges seem to lack the education on breed standard and/or delve into the political arena. Showing is almost a business now a days. AKC will run itself into the ground eventually due to the lack of priority of the owner/handlers. That is how showing dogs started, with the breeder/owner/handler and now we are definitely in the minority. Off my soap box and going back into the shadows. Vicki-Stormwynd. -----Original Message----- From: gsp-l-request@shorthairs.net [mailto:gsp-l-request@shorthairs.net] On Behalf Of gsp4me@roadrunner.com Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2012 4:46 PM To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net Cc: Terry Brumbaugh Subject: RE: [gsp-l] owner handler judging I could not agree more with you regarding owner handlers being passed over for the pros. I don't want to get on a rant but I will. AKC should do it's job of promoting owner/handlers and owner/breeder/handlers and NOT the pros. If it were not for the owner/breeder/handlers there really would not be much reason to have a dog show. These are the people that are the custodians of the breed(s). They should be encouraging responsible pet ownership and the canine-human bond in all aspects whether it be agility, field, confirmation or obedience. If they did this they might possibly encourage more people to show since they could do this as a family acitivity which could then in turn increase entries. Melanie Shufran ---- Terry Brumbaugh wrote: > Hi Diane, > > > > I think it is a reasonable idea, but lacking in execution in some > major ways. First, it would seem if more judges were willing to put up > good owner handler non pro's, WHEN THEY DO A GOOD JOB AND HAVE A GOOD > DOG, this would be less of an issue. Too many judges seem to put up > pro's for a variety of reasons, quality of dog is not number one on > the list. I do realize many owner handlers don't always do the best > job but I have seen some "pro's" do less than a great job too, and still win with less than the best dogs. > Politics are what they are. > > > > Secondly, I agree with you that if the Bob or ops is an amateur shows over. > What I fear even more, is that this will be an excuse to not put > amateurs up in regular breed ring. Entries are down, and the AKC > needs to drive them up somehow and I understand that, but this seems > lacking. Lastly to your point about who will really want to stay in > the ring and find out, I agree. If the judge has 8 specials to choose > from, puts up a pro for breed and an amateur say for ops, and third > and fourth place are amateurs, then I would say you already have your > winners. Even if the ops would not be eligible, the 3rd and 4th place > dogs would be it by default would they not? The only way this would > seem to not hold true, would be if the judges dumped all the amateurs, > and there were pro's to win the first 4 or so places. To me the bottom > line is, who would want to submit a really nice dog, owner amateur handled, to this risk, of being dumped again? > > > > The single best thing that could be done is more education for judges, and > to treat every dog the same regardless of who is on the end of the lead. > > > > Name withheld due to fear of retribution. Lol. > > > > From: gsp-l-request@shorthairs.net > [mailto:gsp-l-request@shorthairs.net] On Behalf Of dise454@aol.com > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2012 8:40 AM > To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net > Subject: [gsp-l] owner handler judging > > > > What do you think of the AKC Owner Handling judging? If the BOB is > owner/handled then that is automatically the winner. If not it goes to BOS > and then choice of Select. If none of those are eligible then the judge > can select one of the other breed dogs. Do you think those dogs will > really want to stay in the ring to find out? > > > > Sounds a bit confusing to me. Wondering others thoughts? > > > > Diane > Unsubscribing: To unsubscribe from the list, send an email message in PLAIN TEXT to gsp-l-request@web.whc.net with message text of "unsubscribe gsp-l you@email.add" (replace the email address with yours, don't include the quotes and note it is a lower case L after the dash in gsp-l). Unsubscribing: To unsubscribe from the list, send an email message in PLAIN TEXT to gsp-l-request@web.whc.net with message text of "unsubscribe gsp-l you@email.add" (replace the email address with yours, don't include the quotes and note it is a lower case L after the dash in gsp-l).

denac

JH
Posts:24

05/24/2012 11:13 AM
Diane! Phyllis stated the following - hence my response! Since its the judges' ring to do with as he pleases then if he chooses to award no selects, he chooses to award no selects. That's just how it goes. They can also hand out the ribbons and not mark the box on their book that asks...are these dogs worthy of Grand Champion points also. That way, you get a ribbon, but still not GCh points. From: dise454@aol.com To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net Sent: Wednesday, April 4, 2012 6:11:40 PM Subject: Re: [gsp-l] owner handler judging Dena, the judge didn't hand out the ribbons. -----Original Message----- From: Dena Calivas To: gsp-l Sent: Wed, Apr 4, 2012 6:02 pm Subject: Re: [gsp-l] owner handler judging WOW Phyllis. that was an eye opener on not getting points when you get a Select ....then why even hand them out if they aren't going to mark the box? From: "Phyllis McNall" <singltrakshorthairs@gmail.com> To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net Sent: Wednesday, April 4, 2012 11:32:16 AM Subject: Re: [gsp-l] owner handler judging On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 7:29 AM, Diane Prohaska <iane.Prohaska@pernod-ricard.com" target=_blank>Diane.Prohaska@pernod-ricard.com> wrote: > Then does it go in the judges book so they know if the bob is an owner handler? Yes, the judges' book is marked with OwnerHandler . Its a bit less obvious, more like an asterisk or some such but yes,the judge would know who is an owner handler. > > On another matter, recently had a judge who withheld select from very nice group of specials. From what I heard he just didn't believe in giving select. Has anyone else had this experience? What do you think? When they first introduced the Gr Champion series, not a lot of advance info had been given, judges didn't understand it, stewards didn't understand it and a lot of judges either didn't give select because they hated the idea or in one case out here, one judge thought that the select ribbons went to all the winners...even WD and WB, and we were out of select ribbons in his ring by 10 am! Since its the judges' ring to do with as he pleases then if he chooses to award no selects, he chooses to award no selects. That's just how it goes. They can also hand out the ribbons and not mark the box on their book that asks...are these dogs worthy of Grand Champion points also. That way, you get a ribbon, but still not GCh points. Phyllis McNall Singltrak Shorthairs AKC Breeder of Merit Las Cruces, NM "Look To 'the Past, Breed For The Future" Unsubscribing: To unsubscribe from the list, send an email message in PLAIN TEXT to gsp-l-request@web.whc.net with message text of "unsubscribe gsp-l you@email.add" (replace the email address with yours, don't include the quotes and note it is a lower case L after the dash in gsp-l).

JJTAMT

JH
Posts:32

05/24/2012 11:13 AM
In some of the cases you have mentioned, you need to contact the AKC rep at the show or that judge will continue to do that sort of thing.. John In a message dated 4/5/2012 7:40:41 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, denac@comcast.net writes: Diane! Phyllis stated the following - hence my response! Since its the judges' ring to do with as he pleases then if he chooses to award no selects, he chooses to award no selects. That's just how it goes. They can also hand out the ribbons and not mark the box on their book that asks...are these dogs worthy of Grand Champion points also. That way, you get a ribbon, but still not GCh points. From: dise454@aol.com To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net Sent: Wednesday, April 4, 2012 6:11:40 PM Subject: Re: [gsp-l] owner handler judging Dena, the judge didn't hand out the ribbons. -----Original Message----- From: Dena Calivas To: gsp-l Sent: Wed, Apr 4, 2012 6:02 pm Subject: Re: [gsp-l] owner handler judging WOW Phyllis. that was an eye opener on not getting points when you get a Select ....then why even hand them out if they aren't going to mark the box? From: "Phyllis McNall" <singltrakshorthairs@gmail.com> To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net Sent: Wednesday, April 4, 2012 11:32:16 AM Subject: Re: [gsp-l] owner handler judging On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 7:29 AM, Diane Prohaska <iane.Prohaska@pernod-ricard.com href="mailtoiane.Prohaska@pernod-ricard.com" target=_blank>Diane.Prohaska@pernod-ricard.com> wrote: > Then does it go in the judges book so they know if the bob is an owner handler? Yes, the judges' book is marked with OwnerHandler . Its a bit less obvious, more like an asterisk or some such but yes,the judge would know who is an owner handler. > > On another matter, recently had a judge who withheld select from very nice group of specials. From what I heard he just didn't believe in giving select. Has anyone else had this experience? What do you think? When they first introduced the Gr Champion series, not a lot of advance info had been given, judges didn't understand it, stewards didn't understand it and a lot of judges either didn't give select because they hated the idea or in one case out here, one judge thought that the select ribbons went to all the winners...even WD and WB, and we were out of select ribbons in his ring by 10 am! Since its the judges' ring to do with as he pleases then if he chooses to award no selects, he chooses to award no selects. That's just how it goes. They can also hand out the ribbons and not mark the box on their book that asks...are these dogs worthy of Grand Champion points also. That way, you get a ribbon, but still not GCh points. Phyllis McNall Singltrak Shorthairs AKC Breeder of Merit Las Cruces, NM "Look To 'the Past, Breed For The Future" Unsubscribing: To unsubscribe from the list, send an email message in PLAIN TEXT to gsp-l-request@web.whc.net with message text of "unsubscribe gsp-l you@email.add" (replace the email address with yours, don't include the quotes and note it is a lower case L after the dash in gsp-l).

dise454

MH
Posts:144

05/24/2012 11:13 AM
geez, didn't realize they could do that. ugh -----Original Message----- From: Dena Calivas To: gsp-l Sent: Thu, Apr 5, 2012 7:40 am Subject: Re: [gsp-l] owner handler judging Diane! Phyllis stated the following - hence my response! Since its the judges' ring to do with as he pleases then if he chooses to award no selects, he chooses to award no selects. That's just how it goes. They can also hand out the ribbons and not mark the box on their book that asks...are these dogs worthy of Grand Champion points also. That way, you get a ribbon, but still not GCh points. From: dise454@aol.com To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net Sent: Wednesday, April 4, 2012 6:11:40 PM Subject: Re: [gsp-l] owner handler judging Dena, the judge didn't hand out the ribbons. -----Original Message----- From: Dena Calivas <denac@comcast.net> To: gsp-l <gsp-l@shorthairs.net> Sent: Wed, Apr 4, 2012 6:02 pm Subject: Re: [gsp-l] owner handler judging WOW Phyllis. that was an eye opener on not getting points when you get a Select ....then why even hand them out if they aren't going to mark the box? From: "Phyllis McNall" <singltrakshorthairs@gmail.com> To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net Sent: Wednesday, April 4, 2012 11:32:16 AM Subject: Re: [gsp-l] owner handler judging On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 7:29 AM, Diane Prohaska <iane.Prohaska@pernod-ricard.com">Diane.Prohaska@pernod-ricard.com> wrote: > Then does it go in the judges book so they know if the bob is an owner handler? Yes, the judges' book is marked with OwnerHandler . Its a bit less obvious, more like an asterisk or some such but yes,the judge would know who is an owner handler. > > On another matter, recently had a judge who withheld select from very nice group of specials. From what I heard he just didn't believe in giving select. Has anyone else had this experience? What do you think? When they first introduced the Gr Champion series, not a lot of advance info had been given, judges didn't understand it, stewards didn't understand it and a lot of judges either didn't give select because they hated the idea or in one case out here, one judge thought that the select ribbons went to all the winners...even WD and WB, and we were out of select ribbons in his ring by 10 am! Since its the judges' ring to do with as he pleases then if he chooses to award no selects, he chooses to award no selects. That's just how it goes. They can also hand out the ribbons and not mark the box on their book that asks...are these dogs worthy of Grand Champion points also. That way, you get a ribbon, but still not GCh points. Phyllis McNall Singltrak Shorthairs AKC Breeder of Merit Las Cruces, NM "Look To 'the Past, Breed For The Future" Unsubscribing: To unsubscribe from the list, send an email message in PLAIN TEXT to gsp-l-request@web.whc.net with message text of "unsubscribe gsp-l you@email.add" (replace the email address with yours, don't include the quotes and note it is a lower case L after the dash in gsp-l).

JJTAMT

JH
Posts:32

05/24/2012 11:14 AM
Just in case you haven't done this, go to the AKC web site and read the rules on how Best owner handler will be awarded. Is it just me or do others believe this system could change the results in many of the breed judging. John In a message dated 4/5/2012 8:50:35 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, dise454@aol.com writes: geez, didn't realize they could do that. ugh -----Original Message----- From: Dena Calivas To: gsp-l Sent: Thu, Apr 5, 2012 7:40 am Subject: Re: [gsp-l] owner handler judging Diane! Phyllis stated the following - hence my response! Since its the judges' ring to do with as he pleases then if he chooses to award no selects, he chooses to award no selects. That's just how it goes. They can also hand out the ribbons and not mark the box on their book that asks...are these dogs worthy of Grand Champion points also. That way, you get a ribbon, but still not GCh points. From: dise454@aol.com To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net Sent: Wednesday, April 4, 2012 6:11:40 PM Subject: Re: [gsp-l] owner handler judging Dena, the judge didn't hand out the ribbons. -----Original Message----- From: Dena Calivas <denac@comcast.net> To: gsp-l <gsp-l@shorthairs.net> Sent: Wed, Apr 4, 2012 6:02 pm Subject: Re: [gsp-l] owner handler judging WOW Phyllis. that was an eye opener on not getting points when you get a Select ....then why even hand them out if they aren't going to mark the box? From: "Phyllis McNall" <singltrakshorthairs@gmail.com> To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net Sent: Wednesday, April 4, 2012 11:32:16 AM Subject: Re: [gsp-l] owner handler judging On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 7:29 AM, Diane Prohaska <iane.Prohaska@pernod-ricard.com href="mailtoiane.Prohaska@pernod-ricard.com">Diane.Prohaska@pernod-ricard.com> wrote: > Then does it go in the judges book so they know if the bob is an owner handler? Yes, the judges' book is marked with OwnerHandler . Its a bit less obvious, more like an asterisk or some such but yes,the judge would know who is an owner handler. > > On another matter, recently had a judge who withheld select from very nice group of specials. From what I heard he just didn't believe in giving select. Has anyone else had this experience? What do you think? When they first introduced the Gr Champion series, not a lot of advance info had been given, judges didn't understand it, stewards didn't understand it and a lot of judges either didn't give select because they hated the idea or in one case out here, one judge thought that the select ribbons went to all the winners...even WD and WB, and we were out of select ribbons in his ring by 10 am! Since its the judges' ring to do with as he pleases then if he chooses to award no selects, he chooses to award no selects. That's just how it goes. They can also hand out the ribbons and not mark the box on their book that asks...are these dogs worthy of Grand Champion points also. That way, you get a ribbon, but still not GCh points. Phyllis McNall Singltrak Shorthairs AKC Breeder of Merit Las Cruces, NM "Look To 'the Past, Breed For The Future" Unsubscribing: To unsubscribe from the list, send an email message in PLAIN TEXT to gsp-l-request@web.whc.net with message text of "unsubscribe gsp-l you@email.add" (replace the email address with yours, don't include the quotes and note it is a lower case L after the dash in gsp-l).

BONGSP1

SH
Posts:53

05/24/2012 11:14 AM
In a message dated 4/4/2012 8:50:15 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, gsp4me@hughes.net writes: I will put my two cents worth here and send a HIGH five to Terry. I am a breeder/owner/handler, been in the breed for about 15 years with a break to raise children and I swore I would not be forced out of showing but it is sure getting close. I love this breed and I am getting soo heartbroken showing in the breed ring. Please do not think I am a novice. I am not kennel blind, I do a decent job, if not better than most in showing my dogs and my dogs are in great condition, etc. I know my dogs faults and understand most of the time when they do not place. I have also spayed and neutered dogs I have finished, knowing just because a dog is a champion, does not mean he/she should be bred. Showing used to be for breeding stock, not any more. The Pros IMO, are taking over and the judges seem to lack the education on breed standard and/or delve into the political arena. Showing is almost a business now a days. AKC will run itself into the ground eventually due to the lack of priority of the owner/handlers. That is how showing dogs started, with the breeder/owner/handler and now we are definitely in the minority. Off my soap box and going back into the shadows. Vicki-Stormwynd. Great post Vicki...In total agreement. I got my first GSP out of the Newspaper back in 1981. Knew NOTHING about showing until 1982 when I went to a local match show here on LI. (I was into horses..LOL) Met some show folks there who were training puppies. Well, the rest is history. In 1984 I got a beautiful show quality bitch. That bitch I finished her myself. She became #5 GSP for a while. In '87 and '88 she was in the top 4 finalist at Westminster with an entry of 40 with NOVICE ME handling her. This doesn't happen any more. Here in the NE, handlers have taken over. Sorry folks...JMO

tbrumbaugh User is Offline

MH
Posts:72

05/24/2012 11:14 AM
Hi John, I think you are right and that was part of the point I was trying to make yesterday. It is hard enough to compete vs. pro's. I can see a judge possibly dumping amateurs for breed, or ops knowing, the amateur can compete for this new "title". I will give the AKC benefit of the doubt because the intentions were probably good. i just see too many potential problems with participation. I still think judge education is imperative, and here is one that I am sure many judges would not like, continuing mandatory education like many other professionals (ie physicians, etc) that should include ethics. I am sure many judges would find that idea insulting, but it is not meant to insult or demean. Ultimately it would be in everyone's best interest, including pros. I still think this whole new program would not be needed if judges would put up amateurs when they have a better dog and do a good job in the ring. It just seems that often we get passed over for a pro, with a lessor dog. The differences can be small, but they are there. I think many amateur owner handlers, especially if they have a significant interet in or have been breeding, see this because they have a very good appreciation for correct conformation, movement, and the role movement plays in evaluation compared to breed standard. Terry -----Original message----- From: JJTAMT@aol.com To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net Sent: Thu, Apr 5, 2012 13:43:38 GMT+00:00 Subject: Re: [gsp-l] owner handler judging Just in case you haven't done this, go to the AKC web site and read the rules on how Best owner handler will be awarded. Is it just me or do others believe this system could change the results in many of the breed judging. John In a message dated 4/5/2012 8:50:35 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, dise454@aol.com writes: geez, didn't realize they could do that. ugh -----Original Message----- From: Dena Calivas To: gsp-l Sent: Thu, Apr 5, 2012 7:40 am Subject: Re: [gsp-l] owner handler judging Diane! Phyllis stated the following - hence my response! Since its the judges' ring to do with as he pleases then if he chooses to award no selects, he chooses to award no selects. That's just how it goes. They can also hand out the ribbons and not mark the box on their book that asks...are these dogs worthy of Grand Champion points also. That way, you get a ribbon, but still not GCh points. From: dise454@aol.com To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net Sent: Wednesday, April 4, 2012 6:11:40 PM Subject: Re: [gsp-l] owner handler judging Dena, the judge didn't hand out the ribbons. -----Original Message----- From: Dena Calivas <denac@comcast.net> To: gsp-l <gsp-l@shorthairs.net> Sent: Wed, Apr 4, 2012 6:02 pm Subject: Re: [gsp-l] owner handler judging WOW Phyllis. that was an eye opener on not getting points when you get a Select ....then why even hand them out if they aren't going to mark the box? From: "Phyllis McNall" <singltrakshorthairs@gmail.com> To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net Sent: Wednesday, April 4, 2012 11:32:16 AM Subject: Re: [gsp-l] owner handler judging On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 7:29 AM, Diane Prohaska <iane.Prohaska@pernod-ricard.com href="mailtoiane.Prohaska@pernod-ricard.com">Diane.Prohaska@pernod-ricard.com> wrote: > Then does it go in the judges book so they know if the bob is an owner handler? Yes, the judges' book is marked with OwnerHandler . Its a bit less obvious, more like an asterisk or some such but yes,the judge would know who is an owner handler. > > On another matter, recently had a judge who withheld select from very nice group of specials. From what I heard he just didn't believe in giving select. Has anyone else had this experience? What do you think? When they first introduced the Gr Champion series, not a lot of advance info had been given, judges didn't understand it, stewards didn't understand it and a lot of judges either didn't give select because they hated the idea or in one case out here, one judge thought that the select ribbons went to all the winners...even WD and WB, and we were out of select ribbons in his ring by 10 am! Since its the judges' ring to do with as he pleases then if he chooses to award no selects, he chooses to award no selects. That's just how it goes. They can also hand out the ribbons and not mark the box on their book that asks...are these dogs worthy of Grand Champion points also. That way, you get a ribbon, but still not GCh points. Phyllis McNall Singltrak Shorthairs AKC Breeder of Merit Las Cruces, NM "Look To 'the Past, Breed For The Future" Unsubscribing: To unsubscribe from the list, send an email message in PLAIN TEXT to gsp-l-request@web.whc.net with message text of "unsubscribe gsp-l you@email.add" (replace the email address with yours, don't include the quotes and note it is a lower case L after the dash in gsp-l).

hunterspridegsp1 User is Offline

JH
Posts:34

05/24/2012 11:15 AM
Isn't your ribbon proof of the award? Then it could be assumed that the judge forgot to make his book. Maxine Hunterspride GSPs Sidney, BC On 2012-04-05, at 5:48 AM, ise454@aol.com">Dise454@aol.com wrote: geez, didn't realize they could do that. ugh -----Original Message----- From: Dena Calivas <denac@comcast.net> To: gsp-l <gsp-l@shorthairs.net> Sent: Thu, Apr 5, 2012 7:40 am Subject: Re: [gsp-l] owner handler judging Diane! Phyllis stated the following - hence my response! Since its the judges' ring to do with as he pleases then if he chooses to award no selects, he chooses to award no selects. That's just how it goes. They can also hand out the ribbons and not mark the box on their book that asks...are these dogs worthy of Grand Champion points also. That way, you get a ribbon, but still not GCh points. From: dise454@aol.com To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net Sent: Wednesday, April 4, 2012 6:11:40 PM Subject: Re: [gsp-l] owner handler judging Dena, the judge didn't hand out the ribbons. -----Original Message----- From: Dena Calivas <denac@comcast.net> To: gsp-l <gsp-l@shorthairs.net> Sent: Wed, Apr 4, 2012 6:02 pm Subject: Re: [gsp-l] owner handler judging WOW Phyllis. that was an eye opener on not getting points when you get a Select ....then why even hand them out if they aren't going to mark the box? From: "Phyllis McNall" <singltrakshorthairs@gmail.com> To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net Sent: Wednesday, April 4, 2012 11:32:16 AM Subject: Re: [gsp-l] owner handler judging On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 7:29 AM, Diane Prohaska <iane.Prohaska@pernod-ricard.com">Diane.Prohaska@pernod-ricard.com> wrote: > Then does it go in the judges book so they know if the bob is an owner handler? Yes, the judges' book is marked with OwnerHandler . Its a bit less obvious, more like an asterisk or some such but yes,the judge would know who is an owner handler. > > On another matter, recently had a judge who withheld select from very nice group of specials. From what I heard he just didn't believe in giving select. Has anyone else had this experience? What do you think? When they first introduced the Gr Champion series, not a lot of advance info had been given, judges didn't understand it, stewards didn't understand it and a lot of judges either didn't give select because they hated the idea or in one case out here, one judge thought that the select ribbons went to all the winners...even WD and WB, and we were out of select ribbons in his ring by 10 am! Since its the judges' ring to do with as he pleases then if he chooses to award no selects, he chooses to award no selects. That's just how it goes. They can also hand out the ribbons and not mark the box on their book that asks...are these dogs worthy of Grand Champion points also. That way, you get a ribbon, but still not GCh points. Phyllis McNall Singltrak Shorthairs AKC Breeder of Merit Las Cruces, NM "Look To 'the Past, Breed For The Future" Unsubscribing: To unsubscribe from the list, send an email message in PLAIN TEXT to gsp-l-request@web.whc.net with message text of "unsubscribe gsp-l you@email.add" (replace the email address with yours, don't include the quotes and note it is a lower case L after the dash in gsp-l).

danelle

JH
Posts:28

05/24/2012 11:15 AM
This is a tough subject. I have dear, dear friends on both sides of the aisle: friends who are breeder/owner-handlers, friends who are "just" owners, and friends who are pro handlers. Certainly, there's a place for everyone. I don't think there are any easy answers, and I'm not sure the new AKC "idea" is going to help change matters any. I got my first GSP showdog in 1987 ... he was a big, handsome son of Ch. Weinland's Matinee Idol and he was the dog I learned on. Eventaually, we got good enough that we were taking Best of Breeds, owner handled, and one night even took a Group Placing in Boston over the top specials in the country -- from the classes. During our "career," we beat the # 1 GSP of the day, and we beat, on separate occasions, two different National Specialty Show winners. We won, and we won often. Now, those who know me, and have seen me handle, know that I am not the most confident handler, that I make mistakes, that I'm the biggest flake outside of a cereal box, and that while I might be faintly competent, at best, I do not have the "artists' touch" that the top handlers in today's ring possess. Back in the late 80s and early 90s, though, one didn't really need it: the scene was different. Pro handlers in the GSP ring were not as common as they are today, and really, most people, breeders included, handled their own dogs -- and did well. A look back through win-photos of the time will often show those of us who were around then, even some of the big breeder/owner handlers, proudly stacking our dogs and doing things that we sure as heck know better not to do now for our photos: allowing our hands to be seen beneath dogs' jaws, not hiding the lead, all sorts of amateur "mistakes." Back in "the day," though, I guess that didn't matter as much ... maybe we were all still learning, or just plain didn't need to step up our games as one must do to be competitive today. The NSS winners and the Top Ten dogs in the country were, largely, campaigned by their breeder/owners. Times have changed. With some notable exceptions, how many breeder/owners are still able to campaign their own beloved special into Top Ten status? When I got my two most recent show prospects, a wise friend of mine, who had been a very successful and well known breeder from the 80s and 90s, and whose dogs are behind many, many of the dogs out there now (including mine) told me that if I thought it was going to be like it was in the 80s and 90s, when the little guy like me could go out there and finish my own dog -- let alone special it! -- I was in for a big surprise. I didn't believe her, until I took my stuck-in-the-late-80s-handling-skills into the 21st century ring and found that she was, for the most part, correct. Given the GSP's rise in popularity over the past three decades, I can't ever see it going back to a predominantly owner-handled breed. So what can "the little guy" like me, do to make him- or herself more competitive? Yes, we can go to George Allston seminars and get yelled at and we can watch and study the pros and those who are very successful and try to apply what they're doing, to our own performances, and we can have someone video our ring performances and try to improve (heaven knows I've learned not to be so fidgety by watching video of myself in the ring, cringing all the way) ... but it's a fact that many of us come into showing as adults, and we miss out on a lot of what the pro handlers who've been in it since they were kids, receive: we will never come up through the junior handler ranks and have our performances (as opposed to our dogs) critiqued and judged in JH competition in order to develop and hone our skills... we will never get to apprentice under a pro handler and handle many dogs, and learn the tiny little tricks and tweaks than can turn an okay presentation into a spectacular one ... for many of us, that focused opportunity for learning is just not there, and in the competitive, and often cruel, environment of the dog show ring, it is only a true and generous friend who will offer honest advice on how to improve one's performance ... (as a side note, I am blessed to have several such people in my life). Anyhow, just musing ... I will never be an "artist" as the best pro handlers are, these skilled folks who can turn an okay dog into a spectacular one, who can put a front on a bitch that lacks one just by a tiny "invisible" tweak, or inject attitude into the perpetually bored or nervous class dog ... and I accept that. But even so, I would love to improve my "mechanics," and see more true learning opportunities for the adult owner/handler aside from the yearly pass- through of the George Allston seminar ... aside from the occasional handling class which may or may not be run by another breeder/owner- handler ... aside from getting creamed in the ring and being left to wonder -- was it my dog, or was it me? -- Danelle Unsubscribing: To unsubscribe from the list, send an email message in PLAIN TEXT to gsp-l-request@web.whc.net with message text of "unsubscribe gsp-l you@email.add" (replace the email address with yours, don't include the quotes and note it is a lower case L after the dash in gsp-l).

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