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legacykennels1
MH
Posts:226
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| 08/05/2011 12:44 AM |
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I know a fair is not dysplasia. But I felt that his hips looked so good I truly thought he would be a excellant. Imagine my surprise. I let it go for a year, but it bugged me. and my vet/who I work for was just as shocked he did not get better than that. So other friends also suggested I redo them. So I did. Not sure if it was the principle or what. I have had Fairs before, but they were bitches as well. No one ever limped/ lived a full and happy life. That said..if you have a bitch who is fair, you "usually" look for a stud dog that is Good or Excellant right?...but if you have a bitch who is good/excellant are you going to breed to a dog that is "fair"????? I would, but thats me. What are everyone elses thoughts on this. I think this has been a interesting discussion, even though it
got a little sidetracked, but since we are all on the same page now..how bout it? Donna
From: Tracy Novoa
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2011 8:34 PM
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups?
it kinda pissed me off that he got a Fair as i watch him move/sleep with his legs stretched out behind him, sits straight, no bunny hopping, no soreness when he gets up etc.
Why would you think a fair rating would be painful for the dog? Fair is "normal" under OFA standards. I would welcome anyone to come watch my 10 year old fair-hipped bitch in the field and in everyday activities. No different than how you describe your male. She ran in a Junior hunt test last month, with my "junior" son, covered the field easily, got 9s and it was hot day! My son thinks he's taking her through Masters. 
She is definitely a fair and did not have re-takes, per the vet's advice.
Tracy Novoa
-----Original Message-----
From: legacykennels1
To: gsp-l
Sent: Sun, Jul 10, 2011 7:24 pm
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups?
Prelims done around 18 to 23 months are not gonna change drastically in 2 to 6 months. Unless they were questionable from the beginning. Most vets and techs can read a film and tell you if something doesnt look right. If its questionable send it in. Although my faith in OFA is sometimes questioned. I just redid my male dog as i was shocked was only OFA fair. Re did them 1 year later and he is OFA good. I know several people who redid Fairs and got good or better. So..were they having a bad day at OFa and decided to give everyone a Fair, or was it the slightest change in positioning? I have seen enough hip films as well as my co workers and vet and we thought they looked great from the beginning. Im glad I did it. it kinda pissed me off that he got a Fair as i watch him move/sleep with his legs stretched out behind him, sits straight, no bunny hopping, no soreness when he gets up etc. Sigh...breeding is not for the faint of
heart, I dont mind people doing prelims. in order to get the breeding due to the bitches age/heat cycles etc. Its really no bodys business but the breeders. Its not a cloud of doom to me. Oh well. If we educate people, we can also explain what prelims are. I have seen in my years of working in the vet world, dogs out of sires/dams with all the health clearances in the world, and guess what...they can still produce hip dysplasia etc. it happens. how do you explain that to a client with a gorgously bred Lab with Ch. parents/ health clearances, that at 6 months his hips look like s--t? but but but I paid all this money for a good dog with all the bells and whistles etc...I dont want another puppy from those people etc etc. I think i have rambled on enough for now huh?...Donna
From: Catherine Iacopelli <catherine.iacopelli@gmail.com>
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2011 6:58 PM
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups?
On Sun, Jul 10, 2011 at 6:38 PM, Vicki Eells <gsp4me@hughes.net> wrote:
With all of the information on the internet, etc, I have a hard time with puppy buyers who do not try and educate themselves.
Vicki"
Here is another geniune question. When people call me about puppies, I have always told them (and in fact the web site of the the-club-that-shall-not-be-named also says it) that they should ask for hip clearance on both parents. So am I no longer supposed to tell novices looking for their first pup that? Or are prelims now accepted? And if so, prelims done at what age? I am honestly at a loss here.
Cathy
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LahrGSP
MH
Posts:703
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| 08/05/2011 12:44 AM |
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I bred Mo to LB before he was two. I had an excellent preliminary on him and did every other test I could. LB was older so I didn't want to wait. I don't feel breeding with a prelim is wrong. But also I would not breed a bitch before she was two. Sent from my iPhone...
Julie www.vonlahrheim.com
On Sun, Jul 10, 2011 at 4:50 PM, Ann Wallace <askmegsp@aol.com> wrote:
I feel the original post was being aimed at me, although I don't consider myself "well known".
Ann
Olde Ridge
Let me set the record straight by quoting from my original post (as I am the "Original Poster"),
"Just an update. I sent this email to the list and got four replies. Two from breeders with health clearances on the parents as requested. Two from people expecting litters whose sires are not yet two years of age. "
Ann, did you write to me telling me you had a litter coming? Let me tell the others who do not know, no you did not. I do not visit your web site without reason, so I had no idea that you had a litter coming, I have no idea who you bred, or who you bred to. So my post was not aimed at you.
But now you have the fourth litter I have heard of in less that a week with a sire under two years of age, and I still honestly want to know if this is deemed by the GSP community to be OK now. Guess my answer is, depends on who you ask.
I like the suggestion to spend my time educating people about health clearances. I thought I did do that. But what do I tell them in the future? Maybe do whatever you like as long as you have a contrat that says you will take the bad puppies back? Or that you will give a refund to the heartbroken puppy owners of the ones that got the bad gene we didn't check for before breeding the litter? Years ago a promising young stud was bred to several bitches just before turning two. That day came, films were shot and sent to OFA and the dog came back displastic. I believe he had around five litters on the ground already. They had every reason to believe he would pass. That taught me a lesson I will not forget.
I know the world has gone the way of if it feels good do it. Is the GSP breed is going that way too?
Cathy
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catherine.iacopelli
JH
Posts:24
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| 08/05/2011 12:44 AM |
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I think that most people who believe in clearances generally don't agree with breeding before final clearances until it is something they personally want to do.
Cathy
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Unwillyn
MH
Posts:183
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| 08/05/2011 12:46 AM |
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| Personally, I would spay the bitch. I think we have perpetuated some
of the fertility issues in our dogs by using technology to overcome
problems that would prevent a normal pregnancy. I also would not
breed an 8 year old bitch that had never had puppies. Why do people
feel that these dogs need to be bred? We are supposed to be breeding
the "cream of the crop". No, I wouldn't breed a bitch before she was
2. Good grief folks.....use a little common sense here.
Andi
On Jul 10, 2011, at 3:51 PM, Kitty Keiner wrote:
> There is always the reason…for the health of the bitch.
> Some bitches have seasons every 4 months accompanied by false
> pregnancies, and a breeding at 22 months might be advised by your
> vet to cycle her up and prevent her from a possible pyometra.
> Some lines have bitches who don’t have a season until 14 months, and
> the next one at 21 months. When a bitches littermates have never
> come into season, it is recommended by Repro Vet to bread that 21
> month old bitch on the 21 Month season so she will be more likely to
> have season later on in life.
> There are medical reasons for this…but as you stated, the important
> thing is to know your lines, your bitches and dogs, and stand behind
> your puppies and your breeding program.
>
>
>
> Kitty Keiner
> KMK Shorthairs
> Competative Companions For Field & Show
> http://www.kmkshorthairs.com
>
> From: gsp-l-request@shorthairs.net [mailto:gsp-l-request@shorthairs.net
> ] On Behalf Of Ann Wallace
> Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2011 4:40 PM
> To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
> Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups?
>
> Assuming the bitch has prlim due to her age, off the top of my head
> I can't think of a reason I wouldn''t be patient enough to wait
> until the full OFA certification. After all, if the dog is old, you
> can collect him and use it when the bitch is old enough. Also, with
> a bitch I worry about mental maturity. Shehas to care for her
> puppies. I think breeding too young or for the first litter over
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Laura Wood
> To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
> Sent: Sun, Jul 10, 2011 5:34 pm
> Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups?
>
> Ann
> Just wondering why you seem so dead set against breeding a bitch
> with just a prelim, but the sire would be ok ?? Honestly just
> wondering what's your reasoning ??
>
> Laura Wood
> Woods Hafen GSP's
>
>
> From: Ann Wallace
> To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
> Sent: Sun, July 10, 2011 4:50:13 PM
> Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups?
>
>
> Thanks for you post, Sue. I agree. I feel the original post was
> being aimed at me, although I don't consider myself "well known".
> Although I don't feel I owe explainations for breeding decsions I
> make to anyone when I believe the decision is what is best for my
> bitch. The breeding appears on my website with full disclosure that
> the sire's hips are "Prelim". Just like any other litter I produce,
> I will stand behind my puppies, in writing, that they will be clear
> of hip displasia and any other hereditary disorder.
>
> The information in the original post is NOT accurate. To my
> knowledge, the first bitch bred to the dog was 8 years old. The
> bitch had never been bred before. You would have to speak to that
> breeder for her reasoning but I would imagine age was a deciding
> factor. Although it really is no one elses business but her own.
> My bitch is 4 years old and comes in season once a year. Until now I
> had not found "the" dog I thought would bring what I feel she needs
> to the table, and one with a pedigree I wanted to work with. She
> has never been bred before, and I preferred not to let her be 5
> years old for her first litter. My decison and I believe reasonable.
> Would I ever breed a bitch on a prelim ? H#@@ no. Can't think of a
> reason to ever do that.
>
> On the off chance that the original post was a sincere attempt to
> learn about why breeders make the decisions they do, I have
> responded. On the more likely chance that it was one more attempt to
> point fingers and find fault, I have one suggestion. It would be far
> more positive and productive to use one's energy to try to educate
> the breeders, of which there are many, to do all health clearances,
> not just hips, to sell their puppies on spay/neuter contracts, to
> stand behind the puppies in writing. I am not pointing fingers, just
> saying that to make a positive impact on this breed we can go alot
> farther by using positive means.
>
> Ann
> Olde Ridge
> www.olderidgegspviz.org
>
>
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donnabray
MH
Posts:73
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| 08/05/2011 12:46 AM |
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Somewhere in these posts someone asked about any scientific documentation about prelims. OFA has a policy on this and quoting from it: " For normal hip conformations, the reliability was 89.6% at 3-6 months, 93.8% at 7-12 months, and 95.2% at 13-18 months. These results suggest that preliminary evaluations of hip joint status in dogs are generally reliable. However, dogs that receive a preliminary evaluation of fair or mild hip joint conformation should be reevaluated at an older age (24 months)." In border terriers, we don't breed fairs as this is generally frowned upon. I think it is interesting how different it is across breeds. The article can be found at:http://www.offa.org/hd_prelims.html which includes a citation that the article is based on. Donna Ray, Abbeville, SC
Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2011 22:17:12 -0400 Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups? From: catherine.iacopelli@gmail.com To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net I think that most people who believe in clearances generally don't agree with breeding before final clearances until it is something they personally want to do.
Cathy |
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ASKMEGSP
MH
Posts:184
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| 08/05/2011 12:46 AM |
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Thanks for digging that up, Donna.
Ann
-----Original Message-----
From: Donna Ray
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Sent: Sun, Jul 10, 2011 10:39 pm
Subject: RE: [gsp-l] Pups?
Somewhere in these posts someone asked about any scientific documentation about prelims. OFA has a policy on this and quoting from it: " For normal hip conformations, the reliability was 89.6% at 3-6 months, 93.8% at 7-12 months, and 95.2% at 13-18 months. These results suggest that preliminary evaluations of hip joint status in dogs are generally reliable. However, dogs that receive a preliminary evaluation of fair or mild hip joint conformation should be reevaluated at an older age (24 months)." In border terriers, we don't breed fairs as this is generally frowned upon. I think it is interesting how different it is across breeds. The article can be found at:http://www.offa.org/hd_prelims.html which includes a citation that the article is based on. Donna Ray, Abbeville, SC
Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2011 22:17:12 -0400
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups?
From: catherine.iacopelli@gmail.com
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
I think that most people who believe in clearances generally don't agree with breeding before final clearances until it is something they personally want to do.
Cathy
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catherine.iacopelli
JH
Posts:24
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| 08/05/2011 12:46 AM |
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Thanks Donna!
On Sun, Jul 10, 2011 at 10:39 PM, Donna Ray <donnabray@hotmail.com> wrote:
Somewhere in these posts someone asked about any scientific documentation about prelims. OFA has a policy on this and quoting from it: " For normal hip conformations, the reliability was 89.6% at 3-6 months, 93.8% at 7-12 months, and 95.2% at 13-18 months. These results suggest that preliminary evaluations of hip joint status in dogs are generally reliable. However, dogs that receive a preliminary evaluation of fair or mild hip joint conformation should be reevaluated at an older age (24 months)." In border terriers, we don't breed fairs as this is generally frowned upon. I think it is interesting how different it is across breeds. The article can be found at:http://www.offa.org/hd_prelims.html which includes a citation that the article is based on. Donna Ray, Abbeville, SC
Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2011 22:17:12 -0400
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups?
I think that most people who believe in clearances generally don't agree with breeding before final clearances until it is something they personally want to do.
Cathy
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momsgspz
Garden City, MI
MH
Posts:174
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| 08/05/2011 12:50 AM |
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I have to pipe in here as someone who recently used a young stud dog. I used to say the same things, "I will NEVER use a dog before the age of 2" never say never. I did. BUT, he has his health clearances and prelimed on his hips Excellent. My bitch is turning 6 this year and I wanted to have the option of repeating if the litter came out as nice as I expected. She has her CHIC and is Excellent as well. i know her pedigree and the stud dog owner knows hers. We went back and forth and debated and finally could see no reason why not to.
This is a dog that I thought would fit into my breeding program better than anyone else that is out there. We are supposed to breed to better the breed correct? Should i settle for a lesser stud dog that would not enhance my program as well just because of age? And I am not talking just structure here. Everything seemed to mesh...temperament, hunting ability ect. What did I get in my littler? well we are very happy but let the testing begin!
I think there are bigger fish to fry than a stud dog that is too young. Bottom line, we can do all of the educating we want, but people will do as they please whether right or wrong. As long as people who "go outside the box" take responsibility for their actions, then who are we to throw stones? And we also have to remember, even the best planned out breedings are still open to divine intervention!
Karin Cecil
Hotwired German Shorthaired Pointers
Home of "Diesel" GRCH/Can CH Hotwired's Jager He's Da Bomb
Multiple Group winning, multiple group placing and record holding!
Also home of "Dawson" Am/Can CH LegacyK Hotwired Analyze This MH
Best in Futurity winner 2009 National, BPIS canada
For more information our website is www.hotwiredgsps.com
From: "Bruce Shaffer"
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Sent: Saturday, July 9, 2011 10:23:31 PM
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups?
I personally would NOT do it. I do know of some who will with a male, with their reasoning being to see if the dog is prepotent and will throw true; before investing the amount of money they will into Training and Events. Can't say I agree, but it's their choice and not mine.
Thanx Kindly and Have A Great Day,
Bruce
----- Original Message -----
From: "Judy S"
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Sent: Saturday, July 9, 2011 9:57:52 PM
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups?
can someone explain why to breed that young?
I am not a breeder .. I am a potential owner and just curious as to why?
judy s.
From: Vicki Eells
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Sent: Sat, July 9, 2011 2:42:42 PM
Subject: RE: [gsp-l] Pups?
I tend to agree with you Laura, although I am sure there are situations that may warrant a breeding that takes place before health clearances are complete. I believe there is a reason why hips are done at 24 months and not sooner for certification, such as hips can change good or bad. There are other health concerns that tend to show up later as well, like epilepsy. It usually shows itself between 1-3 years but does show up later. If we turn a blind eye and keep breeding before the recommended age where health clearances can be completed, then I think we(GSP breeders) will be opening up the door to more health issues. JMO
Vicki
Stormwynd
From: gsp-l-request@shorthairs.net [mailto:gsp-l-request@shorthairs.net] On Behalf Of Laura Wood
Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2011 11:10 AM
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups?
IMO there is no reason to rush and breed a dog,or a bitch before all Health Clearances are complete.
Laura Wood
Woods Hafen GSP's
From: Catherine Iacopelli
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Sent: Sat, July 9, 2011 11:57:54 AM
Subject: [gsp-l] Pups?
Just an update. I sent this email to the list and got four replies. Two from breeders with health clearances on the parents as requested. Two from people expecting litters whose sires are not yet two years of age.
So my question is, has opinion in our breed shifted to being OK to breed dogs under two years of age? Back a few years ago that seemed to be taboo, but lately I am seeing more well know people doing this. So I am wondering if I need to adjust my thinking to a more modern attitude and if there is some new info I haven't seen to say that this is now OK. How early can you do an OFA prelim and count on it to be reliable? I would love to hear more about it. Anyone want to discuss this?
Cathy
On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 3:33 PM, Catherine Iacopelli < catherine.iacopelli@gmail.com > wrote:
I have been contacted by three different families looking for a GSP companion only puppy. If you have a litter with health clearances on the parents within a reasonable distance of the North East, please contact me privately at Cathyyak@aol.com . Thanks.
Cathy
Unsubscribing: To unsubscribe from the list, send an email message in PLAIN TEXT to gsp-l-request@web.whc.net with message text of "unsubscribe gsp-l you@email.add" (replace the email address with yours, don't include the quotes and note it is a lower case L after the dash in gsp-l).
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Hotwired GSPs...Breeding to standard and Beyond... |
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woodshafengsps
MH
Posts:73
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| 08/05/2011 12:52 AM |
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Diane,
You are so right that everyone is entitled to their opinion.
I feel that breeders have a right to make their own informed decision on what they breed,and if they feel they want to breed a prelimed dog under the age of 2 it is their perogative.
With that being said,I also think that know one should feel the need to give a referral to breeder in which they don't share the same breeding practices. Bottom line, If I refer someone to a person with breeding practices that I do not agree with,and the buyers aren't happy. They will remember me as the one who referred them. I feel that people also must feel somewhat obligated to refer only what they would breed themselves . I am speaking only of the Health Clearance issue.
IMO breeders of any breed have a moral,and ethical obligation to do EVERYTHING in their power to promote better wellness in their breed, and while it's is up to each person to decide what is moral,and ethical for them I would think FULL health Clearances at the very least is warranted.
Laura Wood
Woods Hafen GSP's
From: "dise454@aol.com"
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Sent: Sun, July 10, 2011 9:01:37 PM
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups?
Laura,
You're responding to my post, thus I will respond to your comments. I do not believe the point has been lost and that people "always" think it is personal. There has been very good discussion about the topic of breeding before 2 years of age. The fact people disagree is not personal and in fact what this thread is about. We all have and are entitled to our opinions, whether they are popular or not and the world is not black or white. We all get calls for puppies and we all have our personal standards and ways of educating. Some ways may be better than others and some may be downright frightening. Some puppy buyers have their "listening ears" on and some don't hear a word you say. Whether a person chooses to breed a dog or not before the age of 2 is a personal decision they made. I'm certainly not going to judge someone
else's decision unless the health or care of a dog is in question.
Whatever Ann's reason for thinking the post was personal is between her and Cathy and at this point can take it private.
-----Original Message----- From: Laura Wood
To: gsp-l
Sent: Sun, Jul 10, 2011 4:22 pm
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups?
Ya know, I think the whole point has been shamefully lost in this thread !!
Why people always think something is personally written about them is insane.
I responded originally to this thread in hopes of learning other breeders ideas on breeding dogs under 2 years of age with prelims..I really hoped we could have a meaningful discussion,,as there is still so much to learn with Health Clearances.
Laura Wood
Woods Hafen GSP's
From: "dise454@aol.com" <dise454@aol.com>
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Sent: Sun, July 10, 2011 7:20:34 PM
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups?
Cathy, does it have to be all or nothing? Can't you educate them about the health clearances and then give them the pros and cons if they are considering buying a breeding under 2 years. Its the same if they are considering a dog with lines with this or that problem. Ultimately it is a buyers informed decision. All we can do is educate to the best of our ability. I think each situation is unique. A dog with prelims at 23 months is way different then a dog at 12 months. A dog bred at 23 months with prelims will then have actuals done by the time the puppies are whelped. No dog or breeding is perfect so we all have to weigh the options and make the best possible decisions.
-----Original Message----- From: Catherine Iacopelli < catherine.iacopelli@gmail.com> To: gsp-l < gsp-l@shorthairs.net> Sent: Sun, Jul 10, 2011 3:01 pm Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups
Here is another geniune question. When people call me about puppies, I have always told them (and in fact the web site of the the-club-that-shall-not-be-named also says it) that they should ask for hip clearance on both parents. So am I no longer supposed to tell novices looking for their first pup that? Or are prelims now accepted? And if so, prelims done at what age? I am honestly at a loss here.
Cathy |
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donnabray
MH
Posts:73
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| 08/05/2011 12:52 AM |
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Hi Laura, Of course as breeders we all want to live up to the most moral and ethical standards, but I think what a lot of people are saying, is that there can be exceptions to breeding before the age of 2. It is downright silly to pass up a great breeding because you have a stud dog who is prelim excellent and say 21 or 22 months old and an older bitch who is also excellent (permanent film), but don't do it because the stud dog isn't 2 yet. Corley et al (quoting here) "compared the reliability of the preliminary evaluation hip grade phenotype with the 2 year old evaluation in dogs and there was 100% reliability for a preliminary grade of excellent being normal at 2 years of age (excellent, good, or fair)." That's 100%. So no reason to wait. There are other exceptions as well.
Donna Ray Abbeville, SC
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 09:40:45 -0700 From: woodshafengsps@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups? To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Diane,
You are so right that everyone is entitled to their opinion.
I feel that breeders have a right to make their own informed decision on what they breed,and if they feel they want to breed a prelimed dog under the age of 2 it is their perogative.
With that being said,I also think that know one should feel the need to give a referral to breeder in which they don't share the same breeding practices. Bottom line, If I refer someone to a person with breeding practices that I do not agree with,and the buyers aren't happy. They will remember me as the one who referred them. I feel that people also must feel somewhat obligated to refer only what they would breed themselves . I am speaking only of the Health Clearance issue.
IMO breeders of any breed have a moral,and ethical obligation to do EVERYTHING in their power to promote better wellness in their breed, and while it's is up to each person to decide what is moral,and ethical for them I would think FULL health Clearances at the very least is warranted.
Laura Wood
Woods Hafen GSP's
From: "dise454@aol.com"
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Sent: Sun, July 10, 2011 9:01:37 PM
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups?
Laura,
You're responding to my post, thus I will respond to your comments. I do not believe the point has been lost and that people "always" think it is personal. There has been very good discussion about the topic of breeding before 2 years of age. The fact people disagree is not personal and in fact what this thread is about. We all have and are entitled to our opinions, whether they are popular or not and the world is not black or white. We all get calls for puppies and we all have our personal standards and ways of educating. Some ways may be better than others and some may be downright frightening. Some puppy buyers have their "listening ears" on and some don't hear a word you say. Whether a person chooses to breed a dog or not before the age of 2 is a personal decision they made. I'm certainly not going to judge someone
else's decision unless the health or care of a dog is in question.
Whatever Ann's reason for thinking the post was personal is between her and Cathy and at this point can take it private.
-----Original Message----- From: Laura Wood
To: gsp-l
Sent: Sun, Jul 10, 2011 4:22 pm
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups?
Ya know, I think the whole point has been shamefully lost in this thread !!
Why people always think something is personally written about them is insane.
I responded originally to this thread in hopes of learning other breeders ideas on breeding dogs under 2 years of age with prelims..I really hoped we could have a meaningful discussion,,as there is still so much to learn with Health Clearances.
Laura Wood
Woods Hafen GSP's
From: "dise454@aol.com" <dise454@aol.com>
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Sent: Sun, July 10, 2011 7:20:34 PM
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups?
Cathy, does it have to be all or nothing? Can't you educate them about the health clearances and then give them the pros and cons if they are considering buying a breeding under 2 years. Its the same if they are considering a dog with lines with this or that problem. Ultimately it is a buyers informed decision. All we can do is educate to the best of our ability. I think each situation is unique. A dog with prelims at 23 months is way different then a dog at 12 months. A dog bred at 23 months with prelims will then have actuals done by the time the puppies are whelped. No dog or breeding is perfect so we all have to weigh the options and make the best possible decisions.
-----Original Message----- From: Catherine Iacopelli < catherine.iacopelli@gmail.com> To: gsp-l < gsp-l@shorthairs.net> Sent: Sun, Jul 10, 2011 3:01 pm Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups
Here is another geniune question. When people call me about puppies, I have always told them (and in fact the web site of the the-club-that-shall-not-be-named also says it) that they should ask for hip clearance on both parents. So am I no longer supposed to tell novices looking for their first pup that? Or are prelims now accepted? And if so, prelims done at what age? I am honestly at a loss here.
Cathy |
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woodshafengsps
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Posts:73
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| 08/05/2011 12:52 AM |
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,,and as I stated it is their right to do so. Doesn't mean all people will agree with it,or want to refer puppy buyers to it
Laura Wood
Woods Hafen GSP's
From: Donna Ray
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Sent: Mon, July 11, 2011 12:58:41 PM
Subject: RE: [gsp-l] Pups?
Hi Laura,
Of course as breeders we all want to live up to the most moral and ethical standards, but I think what a lot of people are saying, is that there can be exceptions to breeding before the age of 2. It is downright silly to pass up a great breeding because you have a stud dog who is prelim excellent and say 21 or 22 months old and an older bitch who is also excellent (permanent film), but don't do it because the stud dog isn't 2 yet. Corley et al (quoting here) "compared the reliability of the preliminary evaluation hip grade phenotype with the 2 year old evaluation in dogs and there was 100% reliability for a preliminary grade of excellent being normal at 2 years of age (excellent, good, or fair)." That's 100%. So no reason to wait. There are other exceptions as well.
Donna Ray
Abbeville, SC
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 09:40:45 -0700 From: woodshafengsps@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups? To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Diane,
You are so right that everyone is entitled to their opinion.
I feel that breeders have a right to make their own informed decision on what they breed,and if they feel they want to breed a prelimed dog under the age of 2 it is their perogative.
With that being said,I also think that know one should feel the need to give a referral to breeder in which they don't share the same breeding practices. Bottom line, If I refer someone to a person with breeding practices that I do not agree with,and the buyers aren't happy. They will remember me as the one who referred them. I feel that people also must feel somewhat obligated to refer only what they would breed themselves . I am speaking only of the Health Clearance issue.
IMO breeders of any breed have a moral,and ethical obligation to do EVERYTHING in their power to promote better wellness in their breed, and while it's is up to each person to decide what is moral,and ethical for them I would think FULL health Clearances at the very least is warranted.
Laura WoodWoods Hafen GSP's
From: "dise454@aol.com"
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Sent: Sun, July 10, 2011 9:01:37 PM
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups?
Laura,
You're responding to my post, thus I will respond to your comments. I do not believe the point has been lost and that people "always" think it is personal. There has been very good discussion about the topic of breeding before 2 years of age. The fact people disagree is not personal and in fact what this thread is about. We all have and are entitled to our opinions, whether they are popular or not and the world is not black or white. We all get calls for puppies and we all have our personal standards and ways of educating. Some ways may be better than others and some may be downright frightening. Some puppy buyers have their "listening ears" on and some don't hear a word you say. Whether a person chooses to breed a dog or not before the age of 2 is a personal decision they made. I'm certainly not going to judge someone
else's decision unless the health or care of a dog is in question.
Whatever Ann's reason for thinking the post was personal is between her and Cathy and at this point can take it private.
-----Original Message----- From: Laura Wood
To: gsp-l
Sent: Sun, Jul 10, 2011 4:22 pm
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups?
Ya know, I think the whole point has been shamefully lost in this thread !!
Why people always think something is personally written about them is insane.
I responded originally to this thread in hopes of learning other breeders ideas on breeding dogs under 2 years of age with prelims..I really hoped we could have a meaningful discussion,,as there is still so much to learn with Health Clearances.
Laura Wood
Woods Hafen GSP's
From: "dise454@aol.com" <dise454@aol.com>
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Sent: Sun, July 10, 2011 7:20:34 PM
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups?
Cathy, does it have to be all or nothing? Can't you educate them about the health clearances and then give them the pros and cons if they are considering buying a breeding under 2 years. Its the same if they are considering a dog with lines with this or that problem. Ultimately it is a buyers informed decision. All we can do is educate to the best of our ability. I think each situation is unique. A dog with prelims at 23 months is way different then a dog at 12 months. A dog bred at 23 months with prelims will then have actuals done by the time the puppies are whelped. No dog or breeding is perfect so we all have to weigh the options and make the best possible decisions.
-----Original Message----- From: Catherine Iacopelli < catherine.iacopelli@gmail.com> To: gsp-l < gsp-l@shorthairs.net> Sent: Sun, Jul 10, 2011 3:01 pm Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups
Here is another geniune question. When people call me about puppies, I have always told them (and in fact the web site of the the-club-that-shall-not-be-named also says it) that they should ask for hip clearance on both parents. So am I no longer supposed to tell novices looking for their first pup that? Or are prelims now accepted? And if so, prelims done at what age? I am honestly at a loss here.
Cathy
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catherine.iacopelli
JH
Posts:24
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| 08/05/2011 12:52 AM |
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So basically what we seem to be saying is that any breeder can do what they like, and that is their right. I agree to that. The part I don't believe is that everyone will not scrutinize your decisions and talk smack about you for it. Because I hear it all the time. So and so did this, so and so did that. Did you see who so and so bred too? (And unliike some people I will admit that I do it too). From some of the people who have been vocal about their personal rights to do as they like, no less.
So how do we go forward? When we hear people talking like that do we respond by stressing a breeder's rights to do as they like? How far is it OK to take that attitude? What's the solution?
Now that I know I can do as I like and suffer no consequences as long as I do the right thing with my pups and no one will question my decisions, I feel like a new gal. Thanks!
Cathy Iacopelli
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woodshafengsps
MH
Posts:73
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| 08/05/2011 12:52 AM |
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Cathy,
I know you get a lot of puppy referrals,and as long as you know that what is being told to you about a breeder is truth , and you don't agree with their breeding practices don't refer any puppy buyers to them
Laura Wood
Woods Hafen GSP's
From: Catherine Iacopelli
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Sent: Mon, July 11, 2011 1:18:53 PM
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups?
So basically what we seem to be saying is that any breeder can do what they like, and that is their right. I agree to that. The part I don't believe is that everyone will not scrutinize your decisions and talk smack about you for it. Because I hear it all the time. So and so did this, so and so did that. Did you see who so and so bred too? (And unliike some people I will admit that I do it too). From some of the people who have been vocal about their personal rights to do as they like, no less.
So how do we go forward? When we hear people talking like that do we respond by stressing a breeder's rights to do as they like? How far is it OK to take that attitude? What's the solution?
Now that I know I can do as I like and suffer no consequences as long as I do the right thing with my pups and no one will question my decisions, I feel like a new gal. Thanks!
Cathy Iacopelli
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donnabray
MH
Posts:73
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| 08/05/2011 12:54 AM |
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Hi Cathy, Without a doubt, people will almost always have something to say about what another is doing if they don't agree with it or want to slander that person because of jealousy (or they are just mean spirited and have nothing else to do). I was shocked when I started in borders in 1998 at what people were doing and I used to make the comment that "if that had been a GSP that was bred that way," or "if that had been a GSP that is being shown when both the parents aren't show champions," or "if that had been a GSP that was bred to a sire that is NOT a CH," and on and on. I think that we have guidelines for a reason, but maybe there can be exceptions and breedings can be carefully considered before they are undertaken. Don't you think? I am an endangered species scientist, and tend to rely on research a lot. I can't think of another way to do it!
Donna Ray Abbeville, SC
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 13:18:53 -0400 Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups? From: catherine.iacopelli@gmail.com To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net So basically what we seem to be saying is that any breeder can do what they like, and that is their right. I agree to that. The part I don't believe is that everyone will not scrutinize your decisions and talk smack about you for it. Because I hear it all the time. So and so did this, so and so did that. Did you see who so and so bred too? (And unliike some people I will admit that I do it too). From some of the people who have been vocal about their personal rights to do as they like, no less.
So how do we go forward? When we hear people talking like that do we respond by stressing a breeder's rights to do as they like? How far is it OK to take that attitude? What's the solution?
Now that I know I can do as I like and suffer no consequences as long as I do the right thing with my pups and no one will question my decisions, I feel like a new gal. Thanks!
Cathy Iacopelli |
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ASKMEGSP
MH
Posts:184
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| 08/05/2011 12:54 AM |
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What consequences should there be ? Are you looking for something from AKC ? From the parent club ? Should there be a dog warden like there is in Germany ?
As I have said before, from the parent club standpoint, membership is not contingent upon signing the "Guidelines for Responsible Breeders" or code of ethics. Additionally it is only suggested practices for breeders listed in breeder referral. I will say once again, I have been trying to get board support to make it a requirement for all listed breeders to follow the guidelines. IMO the guidelines also need to be tightened up to remove the wiggle room.
Unless or until membership in the GSPCA is made contingent upon signing a code of ethics there is little the parent club can do. The same for breeder referral. Unless or until the "Guidelines" become requirments, there is nothing the board will do.
Ann
Now that I know I can do as I like and suffer no consequences as long as I do the right thing with my pups and no one will question my decisions, I feel like a new gal. Thanks!
-----Original Message-----
From: Catherine Iacopelli
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Sent: Mon, Jul 11, 2011 1:18 pm
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups?
So basically what we seem to be saying is that any breeder can do what they like, and that is their right. I agree to that. The part I don't believe is that everyone will not scrutinize your decisions and talk smack about you for it. Because I hear it all the time. So and so did this, so and so did that. Did you see who so and so bred too? (And unliike some people I will admit that I do it too). From some of the people who have been vocal about their personal rights to do as they like, no less.
So how do we go forward? When we hear people talking like that do we respond by stressing a breeder's rights to do as they like? How far is it OK to take that attitude? What's the solution?
Now that I know I can do as I like and suffer no consequences as long as I do the right thing with my pups and no one will question my decisions, I feel like a new gal. Thanks!
Cathy Iacopelli
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woodshafengsps
MH
Posts:73
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| 08/05/2011 12:54 AM |
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Ann wrote
I will say once again, I have been trying to get board support to make it a requirement for all listed breeders to follow the guidelines. IMO the guidelines also need to be tightened up to remove the wiggle room.
Ann,
I think this would be a fabulous idea !!!
Laura Wood
Woods Hafen GSP's
From: Ann Wallace
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Sent: Mon, July 11, 2011 1:58:11 PM
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups?
What consequences should there be ? Are you looking for something from AKC ? From the parent club ? Should there be a dog warden like there is in Germany ?
As I have said before, from the parent club standpoint, membership is not contingent upon signing the "Guidelines for Responsible Breeders" or code of ethics. Additionally it is only suggested practices for breeders listed in breeder referral. I will say once again, I have been trying to get board support to make it a requirement for all listed breeders to follow the guidelines. IMO the guidelines also need to be tightened up to remove the wiggle room.
Unless or until membership in the GSPCA is made contingent upon signing a code of ethics there is little the parent club can do. The same for breeder referral. Unless or until the "Guidelines" become requirments, there is nothing the board will do.
Ann
Now that I know I can do as I like and suffer no consequences as long as I do the right thing with my pups and no one will question my decisions, I feel like a new gal. Thanks!
-----Original Message----- From: Catherine Iacopelli
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Sent: Mon, Jul 11, 2011 1:18 pm
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups?
So basically what we seem to be saying is that any breeder can do what they like, and that is their right. I agree to that. The part I don't believe is that everyone will not scrutinize your decisions and talk smack about you for it. Because I hear it all the time. So and so did this, so and so did that. Did you see who so and so bred too? (And unliike some people I will admit that I do it too). From some of the people who have been vocal about their personal rights to do as they like, no less.
So how do we go forward? When we hear people talking like that do we respond by stressing a breeder's rights to do as they like? How far is it OK to take that attitude? What's the solution?
Now that I know I can do as I like and suffer no consequences as long as I do the right thing with my pups and no one will question my decisions, I feel like a new gal. Thanks!
Cathy Iacopelli
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7843
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| 08/05/2011 12:54 AM |
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I guess I have always thought of breeding
as a lot of research and weighing the pros and cons and then throwing in a
little black magic and we hope we get what we intended. I think, for the
most part, the folks that are on this list and a part of this discussion do the
due diligence and make their best educated decision for their particular
circumstance. I also know some shorthair “breeders” (and that
is in quotes for a reason) that I would never refer anyone too, period. However,
thankfully they are not the norm at least in my area. I might not personally
agree with a decision that a breeder has made, but at the end of the day the overall
reputation of the breeder and the fact that they have good puppy contracts and
screen their buyers, etc makes a difference. I am not privy to their
thought process and why they decided to breed A to B, and do not think it is
really any of my business. If I had a problem with that breeding, but
still thought they were a good breeder overall, I would probably refer them to
a puppy buyer with the caveat that I would ask for more info about that
particular breeding. Not stating it is good or bad, but encouraging the
puppy buyer to do their homework thoroughly. Again, since I do not know
the rationale behind the breeding I do not feel I am in a position to judge. In
fact, I won’t even judge someone who has practices that I totally
disagree with, but for them I will not refer anyone to them and if asked I will
explain why I disagree with how they operate their breeding program.
Just my two cents,
Bev
From:
gsp-l-request@shorthairs.net [mailto:gsp-l-request@shorthairs.net] On Behalf Of Donna Ray
Sent: Monday, July 11, 2011 12:32
PM
To: ersonName w:st="on">gsp-l@shorthairs.netersonName>
Subject: RE: [gsp-l] Pups?
Hi Cathy,
Without a doubt, people will almost always have something
to say about what another is doing if they don't agree with it or want to
slander that person because of jealousy (or they are just mean spirited and
have nothing else to do). I was shocked when I started in borders in 1998
at what people were doing and I used to make the comment that "if that had
been a GSP that was bred that way," or "if that had been a GSP that
is being shown when both the parents aren't show champions," or "if
that had been a GSP that was bred to a sire that is NOT a CH," and on and
on. I think that we have guidelines for a reason, but maybe there can be
exceptions and breedings can be carefully considered before they are
undertaken. Don't you think? I am an endangered species scientist,
and tend to rely on research a lot. I can't think of another way to do
it!
Abbeville, SC
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 13:18:53
-0400
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups?
From: catherine.iacopelli@gmail.com
To: ersonName w:st="on">gsp-l@shorthairs.netersonName>
So basically what we seem to be saying is that any breeder
can do what they like, and that is their right. I agree to that.
The part I don't believe is that everyone will not scrutinize your decisions
and talk smack about you for it. Because I hear it all the time. So
and so did this, so and so did that. Did you see who so and so bred
too? (And unliike some people I will admit that I do it too). From
some of the people who have been vocal about their personal rights to do as
they like, no less.
So how do we go forward? When we hear people talking
like that do we respond by stressing a breeder's rights to do as they
like? How far is it OK to take that attitude? What's the solution?
Now that I know I can do as I like and suffer no
consequences as long as I do the right thing with my pups and no one will
question my decisions, I feel like a new gal. Thanks!
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
   
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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dise454
MH
Posts:144
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| 08/05/2011 12:56 AM |
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| Cathy,
If you get a call for a puppy then you should refer who you feel comfortable with and based on your criteria. If I get a call I would do the same. It's a personal decision on the referral because as Laura said, its a reflection back on you, your ethics, your morals, etc. I've certainly turned people in a different direction if they were looking for a puppy from a kennel that I did not believe had high standards. Those standards go well beyond health clearances - that is only 1 part of several factors: how does the breeder treat puppies, do the dogs have good temperaments, will the breeder stand behind the puppy, the list goes on.
So on a personal level, we refer people who we are comfortable with based on our standards. IMHO if someone agrees to be a breeder referral for a club, then they should follow the criteria set out by that club and not their personal opinion. However, we should always try to educate. Ann, I agree that more stringent requirements from all clubs with loose ones would be very positive.
People will always scrutinize decisions, that doesn't necessarily make the breeder bad, perhaps that just makes the rest of us gossip mongers!! Maybe we should look at our own positions and yes, I'll also admit that I've been caught up in gossip on more than one occasion - some very weak moments of negativity. Not always easy to step away from it and I admire those that do it with ease and class.
-----Original Message-----
From: Catherine Iacopelli
To: gsp-l
Sent: Mon, Jul 11, 2011 9:20 am
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups?
So basically what we seem to be saying is that any breeder can do what they like, and that is their right. I agree to that. The part I don't believe is that everyone will not scrutinize your decisions and talk smack about you for it. Because I hear it all the time. So and so did this, so and so did that. Did you see who so and so bred too? (And unliike some people I will admit that I do it too). From some of the people who have been vocal about their personal rights to do as they like, no less.
So how do we go forward? When we hear people talking like that do we respond by stressing a breeder's rights to do as they like? How far is it OK to take that attitude? What's the solution?
Now that I know I can do as I like and suffer no consequences as long as I do the right thing with my pups and no one will question my decisions, I feel like a new gal. Thanks!
Cathy Iacopelli
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