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wyndbournegsp
MH
Posts:215
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| 08/05/2011 12:38 AM |
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Amen!
Sue
-----Original Message-----
From: Vicki Eells
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Sent: Sun, Jul 10, 2011 5:56 pm
Subject: RE: [gsp-l] Pups?
I think everyone’s opinion is valid and everyone is entitled to an opinion. Like I stated, there are circumstances which would warrant a breeding to be done before the actual age of health clearances. Just IMO do not believe that should be the norm. Breeding is a gamble and health clearances do not guarantee much, only that Sire and/or Dam are clear of disease and perhaps shows past generations as clear. Still Mother Nature does her own thing. Ann I agree, breeding is the breeders business and there will always be those who try and stir the pot. I just try to do what I think is best for me and my dogs and go on with life. J
Vicki
Stormwynd
Thanks for you post, Sue. I agree. I feel the original post was being aimed at me, although I don't consider myself "well known". Although I don't feel I owe explainations for breeding decsions I make to anyone when I believe the decision is what is best for my bitch. The breeding appears on my website with full disclosure that the sire's hips are "Prelim". Just like any other litter I produce, I will stand behind my puppies, in writing, that they will be clear of hip displasia and any other hereditary disorder.
The information in the original post is NOT accurate. To my knowledge, the first bitch bred to the dog was 8 years old. The bitch had never been bred before. You would have to speak to that breeder for her reasoning but I would imagine age was a deciding factor. Although it really is no one elses business but her own. My bitch is 4 years old and comes in season once a year. Until now I had not found "the" dog I thought would bring what I feel she needs to the table, and one with a pedigree I wanted to work with. She has never been bred before, and I preferred not to let her be 5 years old for her first litter. My decison and I believe reasonable. Would I ever breed a bitch on a prelim ? H#@@ no. Can't think of a reason to ever do that.
On the off chance that the original post was a sincere attempt to learn about why breeders make the decisions they do, I have responded. On the more likely chance that it was one more attempt to point fingers and find fault, I have one suggestion. It would be far more positive and productive to use one's energy to try to educate the breeders, of which there are many, to do all health clearances, not just hips, to sell their puppies on spay/neuter contracts, to stand behind the puppies in writing. I am not pointing fingers, just saying that to make a positive impact on this breed we can go alot farther by using positive means.
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catherine.iacopelli
JH
Posts:24
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| 08/05/2011 12:38 AM |
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The information in the original post is NOT accurate. To my knowledge, the first bitch bred to the dog was 8 years old. The bitch had never been bred before. You would have to speak to that breeder for her reasoning but I would imagine age was a deciding factor. Although it really is no one elses business but her own. "
I honesty have NO idea who this is about at all. No bitches were mentioned, no litter or breeder information was discosed in the original post. I am confused by this.
Cathy
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catherine.iacopelli
JH
Posts:24
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| 08/05/2011 12:38 AM |
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Vicki,
Am I stirring the pot because I asked if a thought that used to be the norm has been rethought? Silly me I thought maybe there was some new science out there that said hips were set before 24 months. Guess no matter what I say it will be misconstrued by this group.
Cathy
On Sun, Jul 10, 2011 at 5:56 PM, Vicki Eells <gsp4me@hughes.net> wrote:
I think everyone’s opinion is valid and everyone is entitled to an opinion. Like I stated, there are circumstances which would warrant a breeding to be done before the actual age of health clearances. Just IMO do not believe that should be the norm. Breeding is a gamble and health clearances do not guarantee much, only that Sire and/or Dam are clear of disease and perhaps shows past generations as clear. Still Mother Nature does her own thing. Ann I agree, breeding is the breeders business and there will always be those who try and stir the pot. I just try to do what I think is best for me and my dogs and go on with life. J
Vicki
Stormwynd
Thanks for you post, Sue. I agree. I feel the original post was being aimed at me, although I don't consider myself "well known". Although I don't feel I owe explainations for breeding decsions I make to anyone when I believe the decision is what is best for my bitch. The breeding appears on my website with full disclosure that the sire's hips are "Prelim". Just like any other litter I produce, I will stand behind my puppies, in writing, that they will be clear of hip displasia and any other hereditary disorder.
The information in the original post is NOT accurate. To my knowledge, the first bitch bred to the dog was 8 years old. The bitch had never been bred before. You would have to speak to that breeder for her reasoning but I would imagine age was a deciding factor. Although it really is no one elses business but her own. My bitch is 4 years old and comes in season once a year. Until now I had not found "the" dog I thought would bring what I feel she needs to the table, and one with a pedigree I wanted to work with. She has never been bred before, and I preferred not to let her be 5 years old for her first litter. My decison and I believe reasonable. Would I ever breed a bitch on a prelim ? H#@@ no. Can't think of a reason to ever do that.
On the off chance that the original post was a sincere attempt to learn about why breeders make the decisions they do, I have responded. On the more likely chance that it was one more attempt to point fingers and find fault, I have one suggestion. It would be far more positive and productive to use one's energy to try to educate the breeders, of which there are many, to do all health clearances, not just hips, to sell their puppies on spay/neuter contracts, to stand behind the puppies in writing. I am not pointing fingers, just saying that to make a positive impact on this breed we can go alot farther by using positive means.
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ASKMEGSP
MH
Posts:184
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| 08/05/2011 12:38 AM |
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Seriously Cathy ? You don't recognize
-----Original Message-----
From: Catherine Iacopelli
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Sent: Sun, Jul 10, 2011 6:07 pm
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups?
The information in the original post is NOT accurate. To my knowledge, the first bitch bred to the dog was 8 years old. The bitch had never been bred before. You would have to speak to that breeder for her reasoning but I would imagine age was a deciding factor. Although it really is no one elses business but her own. "
I honesty have NO idea who this is about at all. No bitches were mentioned, no litter or breeder information was discosed in the original post. I am confused by this.
Cathy
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catherine.iacopelli
JH
Posts:24
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| 08/05/2011 12:38 AM |
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What?
On Sun, Jul 10, 2011 at 6:20 PM, Ann Wallace <askmegsp@aol.com> wrote:
Seriously Cathy ? You don't recognize
Sent: Sun, Jul 10, 2011 6:07 pm
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups?
The information in the original post is NOT accurate. To my knowledge, the first bitch bred to the dog was 8 years old. The bitch had never been bred before. You would have to speak to that breeder for her reasoning but I would imagine age was a deciding factor. Although it really is no one elses business but her own. "
I honesty have NO idea who this is about at all. No bitches were mentioned, no litter or breeder information was discosed in the original post. I am confused by this.
Cathy
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ASKMEGSP
MH
Posts:184
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| 08/05/2011 12:40 AM |
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| Darn that send button !
Cathy, are you saying that you don't recognize this from one of your previous posts ?
"Just heard of another breeding yesterday to the same 17 month old dog... And FYI, none of these breedings involve aging bitches or oops breedings. I am asking about planned breedings."
-----Original Message-----
From: Catherine Iacopelli
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Sent: Sun, Jul 10, 2011 6:07 pm
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups?
The information in the original post is NOT accurate. To my knowledge, the first bitch bred to the dog was 8 years old. The bitch had never been bred before. You would have to speak to that breeder for her reasoning but I would imagine age was a deciding factor. Although it really is no one elses business but her own. "
I honesty have NO idea who this is about at all. No bitches were mentioned, no litter or breeder information was discosed in the original post. I am confused by this.
Cathy
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gsp4me
MH
Posts:92
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| 08/05/2011 12:40 AM |
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Wasn’t necessarily point fingers at you Cathy, just that everyone has their own opinions and it is a personal choice whether to accept a particular practice of breeding or not. Also opinions can change like the wind so again, I just try to do what I think is right and go from there. There are worse breeders in this world doing or not doing things and that will never change. Buyers have to be smart, that goes without saying. With all of the information on the internet, etc, I have a hard time with puppy buyers who do not try and educate themselves. Vicki From: gsp-l-request@shorthairs.net [mailto:gsp-l-request@shorthairs.net] On Behalf Of Catherine Iacopelli
Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2011 5:15 PM
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups? Am I stirring the pot because I asked if a thought that used to be the norm has been rethought? Silly me I thought maybe there was some new science out there that said hips were set before 24 months. Guess no matter what I say it will be misconstrued by this group. On Sun, Jul 10, 2011 at 5:56 PM, Vicki Eells <gsp4me@hughes.net> wrote: I think everyone’s opinion is valid and everyone is entitled to an opinion. Like I stated, there are circumstances which would warrant a breeding to be done before the actual age of health clearances. Just IMO do not believe that should be the norm. Breeding is a gamble and health clearances do not guarantee much, only that Sire and/or Dam are clear of disease and perhaps shows past generations as clear. Still Mother Nature does her own thing. Ann I agree, breeding is the breeders business and there will always be those who try and stir the pot. I just try to do what I think is best for me and my dogs and go on with life. J Vicki Stormwynd Thanks for you post, Sue. I agree. I feel the original post was being aimed at me, although I don't consider myself "well known". Although I don't feel I owe explainations for breeding decsions I make to anyone when I believe the decision is what is best for my bitch. The breeding appears on my website with full disclosure that the sire's hips are "Prelim". Just like any other litter I produce, I will stand behind my puppies, in writing, that they will be clear of hip displasia and any other hereditary disorder. The information in the original post is NOT accurate. To my knowledge, the first bitch bred to the dog was 8 years old. The bitch had never been bred before. You would have to speak to that breeder for her reasoning but I would imagine age was a deciding factor. Although it really is no one elses business but her own. My bitch is 4 years old and comes in season once a year. Until now I had not found "the" dog I thought would bring what I feel she needs to the table, and one with a pedigree I wanted to work with. She has never been bred before, and I preferred not to let her be 5 years old for her first litter. My decison and I believe reasonable. Would I ever breed a bitch on a prelim ? H#@@ no. Can't think of a reason to ever do that. On the off chance that the original post was a sincere attempt to learn about why breeders make the decisions they do, I have responded. On the more likely chance that it was one more attempt to point fingers and find fault, I have one suggestion. It would be far more positive and productive to use one's energy to try to educate the breeders, of which there are many, to do all health clearances, not just hips, to sell their puppies on spay/neuter contracts, to stand behind the puppies in writing. I am not pointing fingers, just saying that to make a positive impact on this breed we can go alot farther by using positive means. |
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catherine.iacopelli
JH
Posts:24
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| 08/05/2011 12:40 AM |
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Darn that send button !
Cathy, are you saying that you don't recognize this from one of your previous posts ?
"Just heard of another breeding yesterday to the same 17 month old dog... And FYI, none of these breedings involve aging bitches or oops breedings. I am asking about planned breedings."
Well, to be fair Ann, that was not the original post, so I didn't know you were referring to that one. You did say "the original post" several times. In any case neither of these two mentioned breedings involved you. As I said, at the time I had no idea you had bred anything. I did just look at your web site now and this is not the same 17 month old stud dog. February 2010 must have been a good month to make stud dogs. 
Cathy
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kmkshorthairs
MH
Posts:73
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| 08/05/2011 12:40 AM |
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There is always the reason…for the health of the bitch. Some bitches have seasons every 4 months accompanied by false pregnancies, and a breeding at 22 months might be advised by your vet to cycle her up and prevent her from a possible pyometra. Some lines have bitches who don’t have a season until 14 months, and the next one at 21 months. When a bitches littermates have never come into season, it is recommended by Repro Vet to bread that 21 month old bitch on the 21 Month season so she will be more likely to have season later on in life. There are medical reasons for this…but as you stated, the important thing is to know your lines, your bitches and dogs, and stand behind your puppies and your breeding program. Kitty Keiner KMK Shorthairs Competative Companions For Field & Show http://www.kmkshorthairs.com From: gsp-l-request@shorthairs.net [mailto:gsp-l-request@shorthairs.net] On Behalf Of Ann Wallace
Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2011 4:40 PM
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups? Assuming the bitch has prlim due to her age, off the top of my head I can't think of a reason I wouldn''t be patient enough to wait until the full OFA certification. After all, if the dog is old, you can collect him and use it when the bitch is old enough. Also, with a bitch I worry about mental maturity. Shehas to care for her puppies. I think breeding too young or for the first litter over -----Original Message-----
From: Laura Wood
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Sent: Sun, Jul 10, 2011 5:34 pm
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups? Just wondering why you seem so dead set against breeding a bitch with just a prelim, but the sire would be ok ?? Honestly just wondering what's your reasoning ??
From: Ann Wallace <askmegsp@aol.com>
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Sent: Sun, July 10, 2011 4:50:13 PM
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups?
Thanks for you post, Sue. I agree. I feel the original post was being aimed at me, although I don't consider myself "well known". Although I don't feel I owe explainations for breeding decsions I make to anyone when I believe the decision is what is best for my bitch. The breeding appears on my website with full disclosure that the sire's hips are "Prelim". Just like any other litter I produce, I will stand behind my puppies, in writing, that they will be clear of hip displasia and any other hereditary disorder. The information in the original post is NOT accurate. To my knowledge, the first bitch bred to the dog was 8 years old. The bitch had never been bred before. You would have to speak to that breeder for her reasoning but I would imagine age was a deciding factor. Although it really is no one elses business but her own. My bitch is 4 years old and comes in season once a year. Until now I had not found "the" dog I thought would bring what I feel she needs to the table, and one with a pedigree I wanted to work with. She has never been bred before, and I preferred not to let her be 5 years old for her first litter. My decison and I believe reasonable. Would I ever breed a bitch on a prelim ? H#@@ no. Can't think of a reason to ever do that. On the off chance that the original post was a sincere attempt to learn about why breeders make the decisions they do, I have responded. On the more likely chance that it was one more attempt to point fingers and find fault, I have one suggestion. It would be far more positive and productive to use one's energy to try to educate the breeders, of which there are many, to do all health clearances, not just hips, to sell their puppies on spay/neuter contracts, to stand behind the puppies in writing. I am not pointing fingers, just saying that to make a positive impact on this breed we can go alot farther by using positive means. |
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catherine.iacopelli
JH
Posts:24
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| 08/05/2011 12:40 AM |
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On Sun, Jul 10, 2011 at 6:38 PM, Vicki Eells <gsp4me@hughes.net> wrote:
With all of the information on the internet, etc, I have a hard time with puppy buyers who do not try and educate themselves.
Vicki"
Here is another geniune question. When people call me about puppies, I have always told them (and in fact the web site of the the-club-that-shall-not-be-named also says it) that they should ask for hip clearance on both parents. So am I no longer supposed to tell novices looking for their first pup that? Or are prelims now accepted? And if so, prelims done at what age? I am honestly at a loss here.
Cathy |
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ASKMEGSP
MH
Posts:184
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| 08/05/2011 12:40 AM |
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I would say you should continue to tell people what you have been telling them. If they ask what prelims are, explain it. You don't have to endorse it. Prelims aren't the ideal.
Ann
-----Original Message-----
From: Catherine Iacopelli
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Sent: Sun, Jul 10, 2011 6:58 pm
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups?
On Sun, Jul 10, 2011 at 6:38 PM, Vicki Eells <gsp4me@hughes.net> wrote:
With all of the information on the internet, etc, I have a hard time with puppy buyers who do not try and educate themselves.
Vicki"
Here is another geniune question. When people call me about puppies, I have always told them (and in fact the web site of the the-club-that-shall-not-be-named also says it) that they should ask for hip clearance on both parents. So am I no longer supposed to tell novices looking for their first pup that? Or are prelims now accepted? And if so, prelims done at what age? I am honestly at a loss here.
Cathy
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dise454
MH
Posts:144
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| 08/05/2011 12:42 AM |
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Cathy, does it have to be all or nothing? Can't you educate them about the health clearances and then give them the pros and cons if they are considering buying a breeding under 2 years. Its the same if they are considering a dog with lines with this or that problem. Ultimately it is a buyers informed decision. All we can do is educate to the best of our ability. I think each situation is unique. A dog with prelims at 23 months is way different then a dog at 12 months. A dog bred at 23 months with prelims will then have actuals done by the time the puppies are whelped. No dog or breeding is perfect so we all have to weigh the options and make the best possible decisions.
-----Original Message-----
From: Catherine Iacopelli
To: gsp-l
Sent: Sun, Jul 10, 2011 3:01 pm
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups
Here is another geniune question. When people call me about puppies, I have always told them (and in fact the web site of the the-club-that-shall-not-be-named also says it) that they should ask for hip clearance on both parents. So am I no longer supposed to tell novices looking for their first pup that? Or are prelims now accepted? And if so, prelims done at what age? I am honestly at a loss here.
Cathy
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legacykennels1
MH
Posts:226
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| 08/05/2011 12:42 AM |
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Prelims done around 18 to 23 months are not gonna change drastically in 2 to 6 months. Unless they were questionable from the beginning. Most vets and techs can read a film and tell you if something doesnt look right. If its questionable send it in. Although my faith in OFA is sometimes questioned. I just redid my male dog as i was shocked was only OFA fair. Re did them 1 year later and he is OFA good. I know several people who redid Fairs and got good or better. So..were they having a bad day at OFa and decided to give everyone a Fair, or was it the slightest change in positioning? I have seen enough hip films as well as my co workers and vet and we thought they looked great from the beginning. Im glad I did it. it kinda pissed me off that he got a Fair as i watch him move/sleep with his
legs stretched out behind him, sits straight, no bunny hopping, no soreness when he gets up etc. Sigh...breeding is not for the faint of heart, I dont mind people doing prelims. in order to get the breeding due to the bitches age/heat cycles etc. Its really no bodys business but the breeders. Its not a cloud of doom to me. Oh well. If we educate people, we can also explain what prelims are. I have seen in my years of working in the vet world, dogs out of sires/dams with all the health clearances in the world, and guess what...they can still produce hip dysplasia etc. it happens. how do you explain that to a client with a gorgously bred Lab with Ch. parents/ health clearances, that at 6 months his hips look like s--t? but but but I paid all this money for a good dog with all the bells and whistles etc...I dont want another puppy from those people etc etc. I think i have rambled on enough for now huh?...Donna
From: Catherine Iacopelli
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2011 6:58 PM
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups?
On Sun, Jul 10, 2011 at 6:38 PM, Vicki Eells <gsp4me@hughes.net> wrote:
With all of the information on the internet, etc, I have a hard time with puppy buyers who do not try and educate themselves.
Vicki"
Here is another geniune question. When people call me about puppies, I have always told them (and in fact the web site of the the-club-that-shall-not-be-named also says it) that they should ask for hip clearance on both parents. So am I no longer supposed to tell novices looking for their first pup that? Or are prelims now accepted? And if so, prelims done at what age? I am honestly at a loss here.
Cathy |
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catherine.iacopelli
JH
Posts:24
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| 08/05/2011 12:42 AM |
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On Sun, Jul 10, 2011 at 7:15 PM, Ann Wallace <askmegsp@aol.com> wrote:
I would say you should continue to tell people what you have been telling them. If they ask what prelims are, explain it. You don't have to endorse it. Prelims aren't the ideal.
Ann
You know what? I am not going to do a seminar on prelims when someone calls me. I am going to continue with my own policy of not referring to litters without permanent health clearances, and not breeding dogs without them either. If everyone is entitled to do what they please, then that is what I will do also. And Ann, no need to apologize for the nasty posts aimed at me now that you know you were wrong in your assumptions, and I was never talking about you. And Diane, no need to step in and stop the personal attacks when they are on me. No worries. I am used to it.
Cathy
Sent: Sun, Jul 10, 2011 6:58 pm
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups?
On Sun, Jul 10, 2011 at 6:38 PM, Vicki Eells <gsp4me@hughes.net> wrote:
With all of the information on the internet, etc, I have a hard time with puppy buyers who do not try and educate themselves.
Vicki"
Here is another geniune question. When people call me about puppies, I have always told them (and in fact the web site of the the-club-that-shall-not-be-named also says it) that they should ask for hip clearance on both parents. So am I no longer supposed to tell novices looking for their first pup that? Or are prelims now accepted? And if so, prelims done at what age? I am honestly at a loss here.
Cathy
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ASKMEGSP
MH
Posts:184
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| 08/05/2011 12:42 AM |
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What I said was to continue what you've been telling them. But IF ASKED you should explaination if your intent is to educate. So based on what you just wrote, if someone asks you what LD is or dilute factor, you wouldn't do any seminars on those either ? I would ALWAYS attempt to answer any sincere question from the public when trying to educate.
And Cathy, my last words to you on any subject. No personnal attacks no apology forthcoming.
Ann
-----Original Message-----
From: Catherine Iacopelli
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Sent: Sun, Jul 10, 2011 7:39 pm
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups?
On Sun, Jul 10, 2011 at 7:15 PM, Ann Wallace <askmegsp@aol.com> wrote:
I would say you should continue to tell people what you have been telling them. If they ask what prelims are, explain it. You don't have to endorse it. Prelims aren't the ideal.
Ann
You know what? I am not going to do a seminar on prelims when someone calls me. I am going to continue with my own policy of not referring to litters without permanent health clearances, and not breeding dogs without them either. If everyone is entitled to do what they please, then that is what I will do also. And Ann, no need to apologize for the nasty posts aimed at me now that you know you were wrong in your assumptions, and I was never talking about you. And Diane, no need to step in and stop the personal attacks when they are on me. No worries. I am used to it.
Cathy
Sent: Sun, Jul 10, 2011 6:58 pm
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups?
On Sun, Jul 10, 2011 at 6:38 PM, Vicki Eells <gsp4me@hughes.net> wrote:
With all of the information on the internet, etc, I have a hard time with puppy buyers who do not try and educate themselves.
Vicki"
Here is another geniune question. When people call me about puppies, I have always told them (and in fact the web site of the the-club-that-shall-not-be-named also says it) that they should ask for hip clearance on both parents. So am I no longer supposed to tell novices looking for their first pup that? Or are prelims now accepted? And if so, prelims done at what age? I am honestly at a loss here.
Cathy
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woodshafengsps
MH
Posts:73
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| 08/05/2011 12:42 AM |
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Ya know, I think the whole point has been shamefully lost in this thread !!
Why people always think something is personally written about them is insane.
I responded originally to this thread in hopes of learning other breeders ideas on breeding dogs under 2 years of age with prelims..I really hoped we could have a meaningful discussion,,as there is still so much to learn with Health Clearances.
Laura Wood
Woods Hafen GSP's
From: "dise454@aol.com"
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Sent: Sun, July 10, 2011 7:20:34 PM
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups?
Cathy, does it have to be all or nothing? Can't you educate them about the health clearances and then give them the pros and cons if they are considering buying a breeding under 2 years. Its the same if they are considering a dog with lines with this or that problem. Ultimately it is a buyers informed decision. All we can do is educate to the best of our ability. I think each situation is unique. A dog with prelims at 23 months is way different then a dog at 12 months. A dog bred at 23 months with prelims will then have actuals done by the time the puppies are whelped. No dog or breeding is perfect so we all have to weigh the options and make the best possible decisions.
-----Original Message----- From: Catherine Iacopelli
To: gsp-l
Sent: Sun, Jul 10, 2011 3:01 pm
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups
Here is another geniune question. When people call me about puppies, I have always told them (and in fact the web site of the the-club-that-shall-not-be-named also says it) that they should ask for hip clearance on both parents. So am I no longer supposed to tell novices looking for their first pup that? Or are prelims now accepted? And if so, prelims done at what age? I am honestly at a loss here.
Cathy
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gsp4me
MH
Posts:92
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| 08/05/2011 12:42 AM |
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Do what you think is right, not what you think you should do. Easy. Vicki From: gsp-l-request@shorthairs.net [mailto:gsp-l-request@shorthairs.net] On Behalf Of Catherine Iacopelli
Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2011 5:59 PM
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups? On Sun, Jul 10, 2011 at 6:38 PM, Vicki Eells <gsp4me@hughes.net> wrote: With all of the information on the internet, etc, I have a hard time with puppy buyers who do not try and educate themselves. Vicki" Here is another geniune question. When people call me about puppies, I have always told them (and in fact the web site of the the-club-that-shall-not-be-named also says it) that they should ask for hip clearance on both parents. So am I no longer supposed to tell novices looking for their first pup that? Or are prelims now accepted? And if so, prelims done at what age? I am honestly at a loss here. |
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Tracy Novoa
Western NY
MH
Posts:191
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| 08/05/2011 12:44 AM |
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it kinda pissed me off that he got a Fair as i watch him move/sleep with his legs stretched out behind him, sits straight, no bunny hopping, no soreness when he gets up etc.
Why would you think a fair rating would be painful for the dog? Fair is "normal" under OFA standards. I would welcome anyone to come watch my 10 year old fair-hipped bitch in the field and in everyday activities. No different than how you describe your male. She ran in a Junior hunt test last month, with my "junior" son, covered the field easily, got 9s and it was hot day! My son thinks he's taking her through Masters.
She is definitely a fair and did not have re-takes, per the vet's advice.
Tracy Novoa
-----Original Message-----
From: legacykennels1
To: gsp-l
Sent: Sun, Jul 10, 2011 7:24 pm
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups?
Prelims done around 18 to 23 months are not gonna change drastically in 2 to 6 months. Unless they were questionable from the beginning. Most vets and techs can read a film and tell you if something doesnt look right. If its questionable send it in. Although my faith in OFA is sometimes questioned. I just redid my male dog as i was shocked was only OFA fair. Re did them 1 year later and he is OFA good. I know several people who redid Fairs and got good or better. So..were they having a bad day at OFa and decided to give everyone a Fair, or was it the slightest change in positioning? I have seen enough hip films as well as my co workers and vet and we thought they looked great from the beginning. Im glad I did it. it kinda pissed me off that he got a Fair as i watch him move/sleep with his legs stretched out behind him, sits straight, no bunny hopping, no soreness when he gets up etc. Sigh...breeding is not for the faint of heart, I dont mind people doing prelims. in order to get the breeding due to the bitches age/heat cycles etc. Its really no bodys business but the breeders. Its not a cloud of doom to me. Oh well. If we educate people, we can also explain what prelims are. I have seen in my years of working in the vet world, dogs out of sires/dams with all the health clearances in the world, and guess what...they can still produce hip dysplasia etc. it happens. how do you explain that to a client with a gorgously bred Lab with Ch. parents/ health clearances, that at 6 months his hips look like s--t? but but but I paid all this money for a good dog with all the bells and whistles etc...I dont want another puppy from those people etc etc. I think i have rambled on enough for now huh?...Donna
From: Catherine Iacopelli <catherine.iacopelli@gmail.com>
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2011 6:58 PM
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups?
On Sun, Jul 10, 2011 at 6:38 PM, Vicki Eells <gsp4me@hughes.net> wrote:
With all of the information on the internet, etc, I have a hard time with puppy buyers who do not try and educate themselves.
Vicki"
Here is another geniune question. When people call me about puppies, I have always told them (and in fact the web site of the the-club-that-shall-not-be-named also says it) that they should ask for hip clearance on both parents. So am I no longer supposed to tell novices looking for their first pup that? Or are prelims now accepted? And if so, prelims done at what age? I am honestly at a loss here.
Cathy
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Enjoy them every minute you have them!
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catherine.iacopelli
JH
Posts:24
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| 08/05/2011 12:44 AM |
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On Sun, Jul 10, 2011 at 8:20 PM, Ann Wallace <askmegsp@aol.com> wrote:
So based on what you just wrote, if someone asks you what LD is or dilute factor, you wouldn't do any seminars on those either ?"
Don't put words in my mouth Ann. I did not say I would not answer questions asked. I feel that I go above and beyond in attempting to educate people about our breed, especially about the health of our breed, considering the many hours I have invested doing so over the years. People who are looking for pets call and ask for a breeder referral. They rarely ask me pertinent questions about the breed. I do try to cover the most common issues before they hang up. Especially activity level and basic health issues.
However, if someone asked me about the lesser known genetic breed issues I would share both what I personally know, and who they could contact to learn more. If someone called and asked me what preliminary hip clearances were I would tell them. I would also tell them that OFA will not give a permanent rating before 24 months and that they could find information on that position on the OFA web site.
But in general, I don't find that pet people are looking to get in depth regarding lesser known health issues, they usually just want an email address and a phone number, and they often ask what they should expect to pay...
No final words here. I am willing to continue to discuss the original issue.
And if anyone has any documented info they could share regarding how reliable hip xrays are at ages between say 6 and 24 months, I would be very interested in reading that. Thanks.
Cathy
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dise454
MH
Posts:144
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| 08/05/2011 12:44 AM |
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Laura,
You're responding to my post, thus I will respond to your comments. I do not believe the point has been lost and that people "always" think it is personal. There has been very good discussion about the topic of breeding before 2 years of age. The fact people disagree is not personal and in fact what this thread is about. We all have and are entitled to our opinions, whether they are popular or not and the world is not black or white. We all get calls for puppies and we all have our personal standards and ways of educating. Some ways may be better than others and some may be downright frightening. Some puppy buyers have their "listening ears" on and some don't hear a word you say. Whether a person chooses to breed a dog or not before the age of 2 is a personal decision they made. I'm certainly not going to judge someone else's decision unless the health or care of a dog is in question.
Whatever Ann's reason for thinking the post was personal is between her and Cathy and at this point can take it private.
-----Original Message-----
From: Laura Wood
To: gsp-l
Sent: Sun, Jul 10, 2011 4:22 pm
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups?
Ya know, I think the whole point has been shamefully lost in this thread !!
Why people always think something is personally written about them is insane.
I responded originally to this thread in hopes of learning other breeders ideas on breeding dogs under 2 years of age with prelims..I really hoped we could have a meaningful discussion,,as there is still so much to learn with Health Clearances.
Laura Wood
Woods Hafen GSP's
From: "dise454@aol.com" <dise454@aol.com>
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Sent: Sun, July 10, 2011 7:20:34 PM
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups?
Cathy, does it have to be all or nothing? Can't you educate them about the health clearances and then give them the pros and cons if they are considering buying a breeding under 2 years. Its the same if they are considering a dog with lines with this or that problem. Ultimately it is a buyers informed decision. All we can do is educate to the best of our ability. I think each situation is unique. A dog with prelims at 23 months is way different then a dog at 12 months. A dog bred at 23 months with prelims will then have actuals done by the time the puppies are whelped. No dog or breeding is perfect so we all have to weigh the options and make the best possible decisions.
-----Original Message-----
From: Catherine Iacopelli < catherine.iacopelli@gmail.com>
To: gsp-l < gsp-l@shorthairs.net>
Sent: Sun, Jul 10, 2011 3:01 pm
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups
Here is another geniune question. When people call me about puppies, I have always told them (and in fact the web site of the the-club-that-shall-not-be-named also says it) that they should ask for hip clearance on both parents. So am I no longer supposed to tell novices looking for their first pup that? Or are prelims now accepted? And if so, prelims done at what age? I am honestly at a loss here.
Cathy
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