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catherine.iacopelli
JH
Posts:24
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| 08/05/2011 12:29 AM |
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Just an update. I sent this email to the list and got four replies. Two from breeders with health clearances on the parents as requested. Two from people expecting litters whose sires are not yet two years of age.
So my question is, has opinion in our breed shifted to being OK to breed dogs under two years of age? Back a few years ago that seemed to be taboo, but lately I am seeing more well know people doing this. So I am wondering if I need to adjust my thinking to a more modern attitude and if there is some new info I haven't seen to say that this is now OK. How early can you do an OFA prelim and count on it to be reliable? I would love to hear more about it. Anyone want to discuss this?
Cathy
On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 3:33 PM, Catherine Iacopelli <catherine.iacopelli@gmail.com> wrote:
I have been contacted by three different families looking for a GSP companion only puppy. If you have a litter with health clearances on the parents within a reasonable distance of the North East, please contact me privately at Cathyyak@aol.com. Thanks.
Cathy
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woodshafengsps
MH
Posts:73
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| 08/05/2011 12:29 AM |
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IMO there is no reason to rush and breed a dog,or a bitch before all Health Clearances are complete.
Laura Wood
Woods Hafen GSP's
From: Catherine Iacopelli
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Sent: Sat, July 9, 2011 11:57:54 AM
Subject: [gsp-l] Pups?
Just an update. I sent this email to the list and got four replies. Two from breeders with health clearances on the parents as requested. Two from people expecting litters whose sires are not yet two years of age.
So my question is, has opinion in our breed shifted to being OK to breed dogs under two years of age? Back a few years ago that seemed to be taboo, but lately I am seeing more well know people doing this. So I am wondering if I need to adjust my thinking to a more modern attitude and if there is some new info I haven't seen to say that this is now OK. How early can you do an OFA prelim and count on it to be reliable? I would love to hear more about it. Anyone want to discuss this?
Cathy
On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 3:33 PM, Catherine Iacopelli <catherine.iacopelli@gmail.com> wrote:
I have been contacted by three different families looking for a GSP companion only puppy. If you have a litter with health clearances on the parents within a reasonable distance of the North East, please contact me privately at Cathyyak@aol.com. Thanks.
Cathy
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donnabray
MH
Posts:73
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| 08/05/2011 12:29 AM |
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Just to let the group know, border terriers are routinely bred at under 2 years of age, but with pre-lims on hips. The rule of thumb in this breed is that the prelims are good to go if done by 18-20 months of age. I bred my bitch with a prelim excellent on her hips at 21 months of age. I had the permanent film done at 25 months and it was still excellent. This is common in borders. We do CERF, patellas and heart as well to get CHIC, but in this breed hardly anyone waits until 2 years of age to breed a bitch. However I will point out that the BTCA ethical standard says "Only mature dogs and bitches are to be used for breeding. Preferably,
neither dogs nor bitches should be bred before 24 months of age, when
mature health test results are available." The word "preferably" was put in there on purpose. Donna Ray Abbeville, SC
Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2011 11:57:54 -0400 Subject: [gsp-l] Pups? From: catherine.iacopelli@gmail.com To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net Just an update. I sent this email to the list and got four replies. Two from breeders with health clearances on the parents as requested. Two from people expecting litters whose sires are not yet two years of age.
So my question is, has opinion in our breed shifted to being OK to breed dogs under two years of age? Back a few years ago that seemed to be taboo, but lately I am seeing more well know people doing this. So I am wondering if I need to adjust my thinking to a more modern attitude and if there is some new info I haven't seen to say that this is now OK. How early can you do an OFA prelim and count on it to be reliable? I would love to hear more about it. Anyone want to discuss this?
Cathy
On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 3:33 PM, Catherine Iacopelli <catherine.iacopelli@gmail.com> wrote:
I have been contacted by three different families looking for a GSP companion only puppy. If you have a litter with health clearances on the parents within a reasonable distance of the North East, please contact me privately at Cathyyak@aol.com. Thanks.
Cathy |
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mountaindogs
MH
Posts:128
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| 08/05/2011 12:29 AM |
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I believe Penn Hip will evaluate younger. Seems to me as young as 16 weeks ??? I still would prefer to have two tested mature parents, myself. I can think of some other sporting breeds that have a LONG list of health concerns and I hope we do not see that day with GSP's.
All the Best,
Laurie
-----Original Message-----
From: Donna Ray
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Sent: Sat, Jul 9, 2011 11:54 am
Subject: RE: [gsp-l] Pups?
Just to let the group know, border terriers are routinely bred at under 2 years of age, but with pre-lims on hips. The rule of thumb in this breed is that the prelims are good to go if done by 18-20 months of age. I bred my bitch with a prelim excellent on her hips at 21 months of age. I had the permanent film done at 25 months and it was still excellent. This is common in borders. We do CERF, patellas and heart as well to get CHIC, but in this breed hardly anyone waits until 2 years of age to breed a bitch. However I will point out that the BTCA ethical standard says "Only mature dogs and bitches are to be used for breeding. Preferably, neither dogs nor bitches should be bred before 24 months of age, when mature health test results are available." The word "preferably" was put in there on purpose.
Donna Ray
Abbeville, SC
Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2011 11:57:54 -0400
Subject: [gsp-l] Pups?
From: catherine.iacopelli@gmail.com
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Just an update. I sent this email to the list and got four replies. Two from breeders with health clearances on the parents as requested. Two from people expecting litters whose sires are not yet two years of age.
So my question is, has opinion in our breed shifted to being OK to breed dogs under two years of age? Back a few years ago that seemed to be taboo, but lately I am seeing more well know people doing this. So I am wondering if I need to adjust my thinking to a more modern attitude and if there is some new info I haven't seen to say that this is now OK. How early can you do an OFA prelim and count on it to be reliable? I would love to hear more about it. Anyone want to discuss this?
Cathy
On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 3:33 PM, Catherine Iacopelli <catherine.iacopelli@gmail.com> wrote:
I have been contacted by three different families looking for a GSP companion only puppy. If you have a litter with health clearances on the parents within a reasonable distance of the North East, please contact me privately at Cathyyak@aol.com. Thanks.
Cathy
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gsp4me
MH
Posts:92
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| 08/05/2011 12:29 AM |
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I tend to agree with you Laura, although I am sure there are situations that may warrant a breeding that takes place before health clearances are complete. I believe there is a reason why hips are done at 24 months and not sooner for certification, such as hips can change good or bad. There are other health concerns that tend to show up later as well, like epilepsy. It usually shows itself between 1-3 years but does show up later. If we turn a blind eye and keep breeding before the recommended age where health clearances can be completed, then I think we(GSP breeders) will be opening up the door to more health issues. JMO Vicki Stormwynd From: gsp-l-request@shorthairs.net [mailto:gsp-l-request@shorthairs.net] On Behalf Of Laura Wood
Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2011 11:10 AM
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups? IMO there is no reason to rush and breed a dog,or a bitch before all Health Clearances are complete.
Laura Wood Woods Hafen GSP's
From: Catherine Iacopelli
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Sent: Sat, July 9, 2011 11:57:54 AM
Subject: [gsp-l] Pups? Just an update. I sent this email to the list and got four replies. Two from breeders with health clearances on the parents as requested. Two from people expecting litters whose sires are not yet two years of age. So my question is, has opinion in our breed shifted to being OK to breed dogs under two years of age? Back a few years ago that seemed to be taboo, but lately I am seeing more well know people doing this. So I am wondering if I need to adjust my thinking to a more modern attitude and if there is some new info I haven't seen to say that this is now OK. How early can you do an OFA prelim and count on it to be reliable? I would love to hear more about it. Anyone want to discuss this? On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 3:33 PM, Catherine Iacopelli <catherine.iacopelli@gmail.com> wrote: I have been contacted by three different families looking for a GSP companion only puppy. If you have a litter with health clearances on the parents within a reasonable distance of the North East, please contact me privately at Cathyyak@aol.com. Thanks. |
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7850
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| 08/05/2011 12:31 AM |
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There are circumstances where someone
might consider breeding before 2 years of age, especially with a male, but
personally I would not do and most of the GSP folks I know would not do it on
purpose either. I do know of a couple of oops litters that have happened
where dogs bred accidentally prior to completing health clearances.
Bev
From:
gsp-l-request@shorthairs.net [mailto:gsp-l-request@shorthairs.net] On Behalf Of Vicki Eells
Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2011 1:43
PM
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Subject: RE: [gsp-l] Pups?
I tend to agree with
you Laura, although I am sure there are situations that may warrant a breeding
that takes place before health clearances are complete. I believe there
is a reason why hips are done at 24 months and not sooner for certification,
such as hips can change good or bad. There are other health concerns that tend
to show up later as well, like epilepsy. It usually shows itself between 1-3
years but does show up later. If we turn a blind eye and keep breeding
before the recommended age where health clearances can be completed, then I
think we(GSP breeders) will be opening up the door to more health issues. JMO
Vicki
Stormwynd
From:
gsp-l-request@shorthairs.net [mailto:gsp-l-request@shorthairs.net] On Behalf Of Laura Wood
Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2011
11:10 AM
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups?
IMO there is no reason to rush and breed a dog,or a bitch
before all Health Clearances are complete.
Laura Wood
Woods Hafen GSP's
From: Catherine
Iacopelli
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Sent: Sat, July 9, 2011 11:57:54
AM
Subject: [gsp-l] Pups?
Just an update. I sent this email to the list and got four
replies. Two from breeders with health clearances on the parents as
requested. Two from people expecting litters whose sires are not yet two
years of age.
So my question is, has opinion in our breed shifted to being OK to
breed dogs under two years of age? Back a few years ago that
seemed to be taboo, but lately I am seeing more well know people
doing this. So I am wondering if I need to adjust my thinking to a more
modern attitude and if there is some new info I haven't seen to say that
this is now OK. How early can you do an OFA prelim and count on it to be
reliable? I would love to hear more about it. Anyone want to
discuss this?
On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 3:33 PM, Catherine Iacopelli <catherine.iacopelli@gmail.com>
wrote:
I have been contacted by three different families looking for a GSP
companion only puppy. If you have a litter with health clearances on the
parents within a reasonable distance of the North East, please contact me
privately at Cathyyak@aol.com.
Thanks.
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
   
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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k9sports4gsps
SH
Posts:43
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| 08/05/2011 12:31 AM |
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can someone explain why to breed that young?
I am not a breeder .. I am a potential owner and just curious as to why?
judy s.
From: Vicki Eells
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Sent: Sat, July 9, 2011 2:42:42 PM
Subject: RE: [gsp-l] Pups?
I tend to agree with you Laura, although I am sure there are situations that may warrant a breeding that takes place before health clearances are complete. I believe there is a reason why hips are done at 24 months and not sooner for certification, such as hips can change good or bad. There are other health concerns that tend to show up later as well, like epilepsy. It usually shows itself between 1-3 years but does show up later. If we turn a blind eye and keep breeding before the recommended age where health clearances can be completed, then I think we(GSP breeders) will be opening up the door to more health issues. JMO Vicki Stormwynd From: gsp-l-request@shorthairs.net [mailto:gsp-l-request@shorthairs.net] On Behalf Of Laura Wood
Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2011 11:10 AM
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups? IMO there is no reason to rush and breed a dog,or a bitch before all Health Clearances are
complete.
Laura Wood Woods Hafen GSP's
From: Catherine Iacopelli
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Sent: Sat, July 9, 2011 11:57:54 AM
Subject: [gsp-l] Pups? Just an update. I sent this email to the list and got four replies. Two from breeders with health clearances on the parents as requested. Two from people expecting litters whose sires are not yet two years of age. So my question is, has opinion in our breed shifted to being OK to breed dogs under two years of age? Back a few years ago that seemed to be taboo, but lately I am seeing more well know people doing this. So I am wondering if I need to adjust my thinking to a more modern attitude and if there is some new info I haven't seen to say that this is now OK. How early can you do an OFA prelim and count on it to be
reliable? I would love to hear more about it. Anyone want to discuss this? On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 3:33 PM, Catherine Iacopelli <catherine.iacopelli@gmail.com> wrote: I have been contacted by three different families looking for a GSP companion only puppy. If you have a litter with health clearances on the parents within a reasonable distance of the North East, please contact me privately at Cathyyak@aol.com. Thanks.
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Almost Heaven GSP
Springfield, WV
MH
Posts:731
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| 08/05/2011 12:31 AM |
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| I personally would NOT do it. I do know of some who will with a male, with their reasoning being to see if the dog is prepotent and will throw true; before investing the amount of money they will into Training and Events. Can't say I agree, but it's their choice and not mine.
Thanx Kindly and Have A Great Day,
Bruce
----- Original Message -----
From: "Judy S"
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Sent: Saturday, July 9, 2011 9:57:52 PM
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups?
can someone explain why to breed that young?
I am not a breeder .. I am a potential owner and just curious as to why?
judy s.
From: Vicki Eells
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Sent: Sat, July 9, 2011 2:42:42 PM
Subject: RE: [gsp-l] Pups?
I tend to agree with you Laura, although I am sure there are situations that may warrant a breeding that takes place before health clearances are complete. I believe there is a reason why hips are done at 24 months and not sooner for certification, such as hips can change good or bad. There are other health concerns that tend to show up later as well, like epilepsy. It usually shows itself between 1-3 years but does show up later. If we turn a blind eye and keep breeding before the recommended age where health clearances can be completed, then I think we(GSP breeders) will be opening up the door to more health issues. JMO
Vicki
Stormwynd
From: gsp-l-request@shorthairs.net [mailto:gsp-l-request@shorthairs.net] On Behalf Of Laura Wood
Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2011 11:10 AM
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups?
IMO there is no reason to rush and breed a dog,or a bitch before all Health Clearances are complete.
Laura Wood
Woods Hafen GSP's
From: Catherine Iacopelli
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Sent: Sat, July 9, 2011 11:57:54 AM
Subject: [gsp-l] Pups?
Just an update. I sent this email to the list and got four replies. Two from breeders with health clearances on the parents as requested. Two from people expecting litters whose sires are not yet two years of age.
So my question is, has opinion in our breed shifted to being OK to breed dogs under two years of age? Back a few years ago that seemed to be taboo, but lately I am seeing more well know people doing this. So I am wondering if I need to adjust my thinking to a more modern attitude and if there is some new info I haven't seen to say that this is now OK. How early can you do an OFA prelim and count on it to be reliable? I would love to hear more about it. Anyone want to discuss this?
Cathy
On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 3:33 PM, Catherine Iacopelli < catherine.iacopelli@gmail.com > wrote:
I have been contacted by three different families looking for a GSP companion only puppy. If you have a litter with health clearances on the parents within a reasonable distance of the North East, please contact me privately at Cathyyak@aol.com . Thanks.
Cathy
Unsubscribing: To unsubscribe from the list, send an email message in PLAIN TEXT to gsp-l-request@web.whc.net with message text of "unsubscribe gsp-l you@email.add" (replace the email address with yours, don't include the quotes and note it is a lower case L after the dash in gsp-l). |
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Money will buy a fine dog, but only kindness will make him wag his tail.
Bruce Shaffer
Almost Heaven GSP's
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dise454
MH
Posts:144
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| 08/05/2011 12:31 AM |
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| Hi Judy, In general I agree the dog should be at least 2 years of age, however it could always just be an oops breeding. I remember back in '84/85 our bitch was locked in my parents bedroom and our male, just under 2 was locked in my bedroom. In the middle of the night she broke through 2 doors to get to him on my bed!!! It happens - oops!!
Another reason I can think of is that perhaps the bitch is going to be bred for the last time and perhaps the dog is from lines the breeder really wants to use and is just shy of 24 months.
Diane
-----Original Message-----
From: Judy S
To: gsp-l
Sent: Sat, Jul 9, 2011 6:07 pm
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups?
can someone explain why to breed that young?
I am not a breeder .. I am a potential owner and just curious as to why?
judy s.
From: Vicki Eells <gsp4me@hughes.net>
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Sent: Sat, July 9, 2011 2:42:42 PM
Subject: RE: [gsp-l] Pups?
I tend to agree with you Laura, although I am sure there are situations that may warrant a breeding that takes place before health clearances are complete. I believe there is a reason why hips are done at 24 months and not sooner for certification, such as hips can change good or bad. There are other health concerns that tend to show up later as well, like epilepsy. It usually shows itself between 1-3 years but does show up later. If we turn a blind eye and keep breeding before the recommended age where health clearances can be completed, then I think we(GSP breeders) will be opening up the door to more health issues. JMO
Vicki
Stormwynd
IMO there is no reason to rush and breed a dog,or a bitch before all Health Clearances are
complete.
Laura Wood
Woods Hafen GSP's
Just an update. I sent this email to the list and got four replies. Two from breeders with health clearances on the parents as requested. Two from people expecting litters whose sires are not yet two years of age.
So my question is, has opinion in our breed shifted to being OK to breed dogs under two years of age? Back a few years ago that seemed to be taboo, but lately I am seeing more well know people doing this. So I am wondering if I need to adjust my thinking to a more modern attitude and if there is some new info I haven't seen to say that this is now OK. How early can you do an OFA prelim and count on it to be
reliable? I would love to hear more about it. Anyone want to discuss this?
I have been contacted by three different families looking for a GSP companion only puppy. If you have a litter with health clearances on the parents within a reasonable distance of the North East, please contact me privately at Cathyyak@aol.com. Thanks.
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Foxhillbmf
JH
Posts:23
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| 08/05/2011 12:31 AM |
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In some large and giant breeds it is VERY common to breed just under or at
2 years of age. Due to their shortened like span for
one. The older the bitch gets the more complications when
whelping etc.
I know the trend in a couple of large breeds right now has become
breeding them before they are finished in the ring even. Get a
healthy litter while they are young, safer for mom, then send her back into the
ring more physically mature and finish her.
Prelims are of course done, Penn Hip is used more frequently along with OFA
as a tool. The numbers and results don't seem to change that
drastically.
Not saying I agree with any of this or not, just what is happening in other
breeds.
Christine
In a message dated 7/9/2011 10:31:38 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
dise454@aol.com writes:
Hi Judy, In general I agree the dog
should be at least 2 years of age, however it could always just be an oops
breeding. I remember back in '84/85 our bitch was locked in my
parents bedroom and our male, just under 2 was locked in my bedroom. In
the middle of the night she broke through 2 doors to get to him on my bed!!!
It happens - oops!!
Another
reason I can think of is that perhaps the bitch is going to be bred for the
last time and perhaps the dog is from lines the breeder really wants to use
and is just shy of 24 months.
Diane
-----Original
Message----- From: Judy S
To: gsp-l
Sent: Sat, Jul 9, 2011 6:07 pm
Subject: Re:
[gsp-l] Pups?
can someone explain why to breed that young?
I am not a breeder .. I
am a potential owner and just curious as to why?
judy s.
From: Vicki Eells <gsp4me@hughes.net>
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Sent: Sat, July 9, 2011 2:42:42
PM
Subject: RE: [gsp-l]
Pups?
I tend to
agree with you Laura, although I am sure there are situations that may warrant
a breeding that takes place before health clearances are complete. I
believe there is a reason why hips are done at 24 months and not sooner for
certification, such as hips can change good or bad. There are other health
concerns that tend to show up later as well, like epilepsy. It usually shows
itself between 1-3 years but does show up later. If we turn a blind eye
and keep breeding before the recommended age where health clearances can be
completed, then I think we(GSP breeders) will be opening up the door to more
health issues. JMO
Vicki
Stormwynd
IMO there is no reason to
rush and breed a dog,or a bitch before all Health Clearances are
complete.
Laura Wood
Woods Hafen
GSP's
Just an update. I sent this email to the list and
got four replies. Two from breeders with health clearances on the
parents as requested. Two from people expecting litters whose sires are
not yet two years of age.
So my question is, has opinion in our breed shifted to
being OK to breed dogs under two years of age? Back a few years ago that
seemed to be taboo, but lately I am seeing more well know people
doing this. So I am wondering if I need to adjust my thinking to a more
modern attitude and if there is some new info I haven't seen to say that
this is now OK. How early can you do an OFA prelim and count on it to be
reliable? I would love to hear more about it. Anyone want to
discuss this?
I have been contacted by three different families looking
for a GSP companion only puppy. If you have a litter with health
clearances on the parents within a reasonable distance of the North East,
please contact me privately at Cathyyak@aol.com.
Thanks.
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ASKMEGSP
MH
Posts:184
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| 08/05/2011 12:34 AM |
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Thanks for you post, Sue. I agree. I feel the original post was being aimed at me, although I don't consider myself "well known". Although I don't feel I owe explainations for breeding decsions I make to anyone when I believe the decision is what is best for my bitch. The breeding appears on my website with full disclosure that the sire's hips are "Prelim". Just like any other litter I produce, I will stand behind my puppies, in writing, that they will be clear of hip displasia and any other hereditary disorder.
The information in the original post is NOT accurate. To my knowledge, the first bitch bred to the dog was 8 years old. The bitch had never been bred before. You would have to speak to that breeder for her reasoning but I would imagine age was a deciding factor. Although it really is no one elses business but her own. My bitch is 4 years old and comes in season once a year. Until now I had not found "the" dog I thought would bring what I feel she needs to the table, and one with a pedigree I wanted to work with. She has never been bred before, and I preferred not to let her be 5 years old for her first litter. My decison and I believe reasonable. Would I ever breed a bitch on a prelim ? H#@@ no. Can't think of a reason to ever do that.
On the off chance that the original post was a sincere attempt to learn about why breeders make the decisions they do, I have responded. On the more likely chance that it was one more attempt to point fingers and find fault, I have one suggestion. It would be far more positive and productive to use one's energy to try to educate the breeders, of which there are many, to do all health clearances, not just hips, to sell their puppies on spay/neuter contracts, to stand behind the puppies in writing. I am not pointing fingers, just saying that to make a positive impact on this breed we can go alot farther by using positive means.
Ann
Olde Ridge
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woodshafengsps
MH
Posts:73
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| 08/05/2011 12:34 AM |
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Ann
Just wondering why you seem so dead set against breeding a bitch with just a prelim, but the sire would be ok ?? Honestly just wondering what's your reasoning ??
Laura Wood
Woods Hafen GSP's
From: Ann Wallace
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Sent: Sun, July 10, 2011 4:50:13 PM
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups?
Thanks for you post, Sue. I agree. I feel the original post was being aimed at me, although I don't consider myself "well known". Although I don't feel I owe explainations for breeding decsions I make to anyone when I believe the decision is what is best for my bitch. The breeding appears on my website with full disclosure that the sire's hips are "Prelim". Just like any other litter I produce, I will stand behind my puppies, in writing, that they will be clear of hip displasia and any other hereditary disorder.
The information in the original post is NOT accurate. To my knowledge, the first bitch bred to the dog was 8 years old. The bitch had never been bred before. You would have to speak to that breeder for her reasoning but I would imagine age was a deciding factor. Although it really is no one elses business but her own. My bitch is 4 years old and comes in season once a year. Until now I had not found "the" dog I thought would bring what I feel she needs to the table, and one with a pedigree I wanted to work with. She has never been bred before, and I preferred not to let her be 5 years old for her first litter. My decison and I believe reasonable. Would I ever breed a bitch on a prelim ? H#@@ no. Can't think of a reason to ever do that.
On the off chance that the original post was a sincere attempt to learn about why breeders make the decisions they do, I have responded. On the more likely chance that it was one more attempt to point fingers and find fault, I have one suggestion. It would be far more positive and productive to use one's energy to try to educate the breeders, of which there are many, to do all health clearances, not just hips, to sell their puppies on spay/neuter contracts, to stand behind the puppies in writing. I am not pointing fingers, just saying that to make a positive impact on this breed we can go alot farther by using positive means.
Ann
Olde Ridge
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dise454
MH
Posts:144
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| 08/05/2011 12:34 AM |
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Ann, I think yours and Sue's post are very good examples of reasons to breed under two. You definitely hit the nail on the head with the important aspect being standing behind your breedings and their health as a more important factor. Does a month or two really make a difference ? Not likely.
For me, in general as I've said earlier, breeding over two is best, but I'm certainly not going to judge anyone who makes a different decision and for a good reason I might make the same one.
Donna, I agree, in the old days it seemed much easier, but then again that was before the Internet, which gives speed of communication, gossip and judgement a new meaning!! 
Diane
-----Original Message-----
From: Ann Wallace
To: gsp-l
Sent: Sun, Jul 10, 2011 1:00 pm
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups?
Thanks for you post, Sue. I agree. I feel the original post was being aimed at me, although I don't consider myself "well known". Although I don't feel I owe explainations for breeding decsions I make to anyone when I believe the decision is what is best for my bitch. The breeding appears on my website with full disclosure that the sire's hips are "Prelim". Just like any other litter I produce, I will stand behind my puppies, in writing, that they will be clear of hip displasia and any other hereditary disorder.
The information in the original post is NOT accurate. To my knowledge, the first bitch bred to the dog was 8 years old. The bitch had never been bred before. You would have to speak to that breeder for her reasoning but I would imagine age was a deciding factor. Although it really is no one elses business but her own. My bitch is 4 years old and comes in season once a year. Until now I had not found "the" dog I thought would bring what I feel she needs to the table, and one with a pedigree I wanted to work with. She has never been bred before, and I preferred not to let her be 5 years old for her first litter. My decison and I believe reasonable. Would I ever breed a bitch on a prelim ? H#@@ no. Can't think of a reason to ever do that.
On the off chance that the original post was a sincere attempt to learn about why breeders make the decisions they do, I have responded. On the more likely chance that it was one more attempt to point fingers and find fault, I have one suggestion. It would be far more positive and productive to use one's energy to try to educate the breeders, of which there are many, to do all health clearances, not just hips, to sell their puppies on spay/neuter contracts, to stand behind the puppies in writing. I am not pointing fingers, just saying that to make a positive impact on this breed we can go alot farther by using positive means.
Ann
Olde Ridge
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ASKMEGSP
MH
Posts:184
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| 08/05/2011 12:36 AM |
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Assuming the bitch has prlim due to her age, off the top of my head I can't think of a reason I wouldn''t be patient enough to wait until the full OFA certification. After all, if the dog is old, you can collect him and use it when the bitch is old enough. Also, with a bitch I worry about mental maturity. Shehas to care for her puppies. I think breeding too young or for the first litter over
-----Original Message-----
From: Laura Wood
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Sent: Sun, Jul 10, 2011 5:34 pm
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups?
Ann
Just wondering why you seem so dead set against breeding a bitch with just a prelim, but the sire would be ok ?? Honestly just wondering what's your reasoning ??
Laura Wood
Woods Hafen GSP's
From: Ann Wallace <askmegsp@aol.com>
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Sent: Sun, July 10, 2011 4:50:13 PM
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups?
Thanks for you post, Sue. I agree. I feel the original post was being aimed at me, although I don't consider myself "well known". Although I don't feel I owe explainations for breeding decsions I make to anyone when I believe the decision is what is best for my bitch. The breeding appears on my website with full disclosure that the sire's hips are "Prelim". Just like any other litter I produce, I will stand behind my puppies, in writing, that they will be clear of hip displasia and any other hereditary disorder.
The information in the original post is NOT accurate. To my knowledge, the first bitch bred to the dog was 8 years old. The bitch had never been bred before. You would have to speak to that breeder for her reasoning but I would imagine age was a deciding factor. Although it really is no one elses business but her own. My bitch is 4 years old and comes in season once a year. Until now I had not found "the" dog I thought would bring what I feel she needs to the table, and one with a pedigree I wanted to work with. She has never been bred before, and I preferred not to let her be 5 years old for her first litter. My decison and I believe reasonable. Would I ever breed a bitch on a prelim ? H#@@ no. Can't think of a reason to ever do that.
On the off chance that the original post was a sincere attempt to learn about why breeders make the decisions they do, I have responded. On the more likely chance that it was one more attempt to point fingers and find fault, I have one suggestion. It would be far more positive and productive to use one's energy to try to educate the breeders, of which there are many, to do all health clearances, not just hips, to sell their puppies on spay/neuter contracts, to stand behind the puppies in writing. I am not pointing fingers, just saying that to make a positive impact on this breed we can go alot farther by using positive means.
Ann
Olde Ridge
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ASKMEGSP
MH
Posts:184
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| 08/05/2011 12:36 AM |
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sorry, hit send by mistake. I worry about the mental maturity of the bitch in regards to being a good mother. A bitch that is under 2 years old and still has a "puppy brain" or one that is having her first litter later on, may not be a great mother. There are exceptions to all of this I am sure, but those are my thoughts.
Ann
-----Original Message-----
From: Laura Wood
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Sent: Sun, Jul 10, 2011 5:34 pm
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups?
Ann
Just wondering why you seem so dead set against breeding a bitch with just a prelim, but the sire would be ok ?? Honestly just wondering what's your reasoning ??
Laura Wood
Woods Hafen GSP's
From: Ann Wallace <askmegsp@aol.com>
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Sent: Sun, July 10, 2011 4:50:13 PM
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups?
Thanks for you post, Sue. I agree. I feel the original post was being aimed at me, although I don't consider myself "well known". Although I don't feel I owe explainations for breeding decsions I make to anyone when I believe the decision is what is best for my bitch. The breeding appears on my website with full disclosure that the sire's hips are "Prelim". Just like any other litter I produce, I will stand behind my puppies, in writing, that they will be clear of hip displasia and any other hereditary disorder.
The information in the original post is NOT accurate. To my knowledge, the first bitch bred to the dog was 8 years old. The bitch had never been bred before. You would have to speak to that breeder for her reasoning but I would imagine age was a deciding factor. Although it really is no one elses business but her own. My bitch is 4 years old and comes in season once a year. Until now I had not found "the" dog I thought would bring what I feel she needs to the table, and one with a pedigree I wanted to work with. She has never been bred before, and I preferred not to let her be 5 years old for her first litter. My decison and I believe reasonable. Would I ever breed a bitch on a prelim ? H#@@ no. Can't think of a reason to ever do that.
On the off chance that the original post was a sincere attempt to learn about why breeders make the decisions they do, I have responded. On the more likely chance that it was one more attempt to point fingers and find fault, I have one suggestion. It would be far more positive and productive to use one's energy to try to educate the breeders, of which there are many, to do all health clearances, not just hips, to sell their puppies on spay/neuter contracts, to stand behind the puppies in writing. I am not pointing fingers, just saying that to make a positive impact on this breed we can go alot farther by using positive means.
Ann
Olde Ridge
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woodshafengsps
MH
Posts:73
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| 08/05/2011 12:36 AM |
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So if a bitch came into season at the age of 23 months,and has had multiple seasons,and you had prelims on her you would absolutely not breed her ?
Laura Wood
Woods Hafen GSP's
From: Ann Wallace
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Sent: Sun, July 10, 2011 5:40:07 PM
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups?
Assuming the bitch has prlim due to her age, off the top of my head I can't think of a reason I wouldn''t be patient enough to wait until the full OFA certification. After all, if the dog is old, you can collect him and use it when the bitch is old enough. Also, with a bitch I worry about mental maturity. Shehas to care for her puppies. I think breeding too young or for the first litter over
-----Original Message----- From: Laura Wood
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Sent: Sun, Jul 10, 2011 5:34 pm
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups?
Ann
Just wondering why you seem so dead set against breeding a bitch with just a prelim, but the sire would be ok ?? Honestly just wondering what's your reasoning ??
Laura Wood
Woods Hafen GSP's
From: Ann Wallace <askmegsp@aol.com>
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Sent: Sun, July 10, 2011 4:50:13 PM
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups?
Thanks for you post, Sue. I agree. I feel the original post was being aimed at me, although I don't consider myself "well known". Although I don't feel I owe explainations for breeding decsions I make to anyone when I believe the decision is what is best for my bitch. The breeding appears on my website with full disclosure that the sire's hips are "Prelim". Just like any other litter I produce, I will stand behind my puppies, in writing, that they will be clear of hip displasia and any other hereditary disorder.
The information in the original post is NOT accurate. To my knowledge, the first bitch bred to the dog was 8 years old. The bitch had never been bred before. You would have to speak to that breeder for her reasoning but I would imagine age was a deciding factor. Although it really is no one elses business but her own. My bitch is 4 years old and comes in season once a year. Until now I had not found "the" dog I thought would bring what I feel she needs to the table, and one with a pedigree I wanted to work with. She has never been bred before, and I preferred not to let her be 5 years old for her first litter. My decison and I believe reasonable. Would I ever breed a bitch on a prelim ? H#@@ no. Can't think of a reason to ever do that.
On the off chance that the original post was a sincere attempt to learn about why breeders make the decisions they do, I have responded. On the more likely chance that it was one more attempt to point fingers and find fault, I have one suggestion. It would be far more positive and productive to use one's energy to try to educate the breeders, of which there are many, to do all health clearances, not just hips, to sell their puppies on spay/neuter contracts, to stand behind the puppies in writing. I am not pointing fingers, just saying that to make a positive impact on this breed we can go alot farther by using positive means.
Ann
Olde Ridge
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gsp4me
MH
Posts:92
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| 08/05/2011 12:36 AM |
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I think everyone’s opinion is valid and everyone is entitled to an opinion. Like I stated, there are circumstances which would warrant a breeding to be done before the actual age of health clearances. Just IMO do not believe that should be the norm. Breeding is a gamble and health clearances do not guarantee much, only that Sire and/or Dam are clear of disease and perhaps shows past generations as clear. Still Mother Nature does her own thing. Ann I agree, breeding is the breeders business and there will always be those who try and stir the pot. I just try to do what I think is best for me and my dogs and go on with life. J Vicki Stormwynd From: gsp-l-request@shorthairs.net [mailto:gsp-l-request@shorthairs.net] On Behalf Of Ann Wallace
Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2011 3:50 PM
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups? Thanks for you post, Sue. I agree. I feel the original post was being aimed at me, although I don't consider myself "well known". Although I don't feel I owe explainations for breeding decsions I make to anyone when I believe the decision is what is best for my bitch. The breeding appears on my website with full disclosure that the sire's hips are "Prelim". Just like any other litter I produce, I will stand behind my puppies, in writing, that they will be clear of hip displasia and any other hereditary disorder. The information in the original post is NOT accurate. To my knowledge, the first bitch bred to the dog was 8 years old. The bitch had never been bred before. You would have to speak to that breeder for her reasoning but I would imagine age was a deciding factor. Although it really is no one elses business but her own. My bitch is 4 years old and comes in season once a year. Until now I had not found "the" dog I thought would bring what I feel she needs to the table, and one with a pedigree I wanted to work with. She has never been bred before, and I preferred not to let her be 5 years old for her first litter. My decison and I believe reasonable. Would I ever breed a bitch on a prelim ? H#@@ no. Can't think of a reason to ever do that. On the off chance that the original post was a sincere attempt to learn about why breeders make the decisions they do, I have responded. On the more likely chance that it was one more attempt to point fingers and find fault, I have one suggestion. It would be far more positive and productive to use one's energy to try to educate the breeders, of which there are many, to do all health clearances, not just hips, to sell their puppies on spay/neuter contracts, to stand behind the puppies in writing. I am not pointing fingers, just saying that to make a positive impact on this breed we can go alot farther by using positive means. |
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ASKMEGSP
MH
Posts:184
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| 08/05/2011 12:36 AM |
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I wouldn't have done the prelims on her to begin with. I would have waited until she was 2 to do her hips.
Ann
-----Original Message-----
From: Laura Wood
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Sent: Sun, Jul 10, 2011 5:53 pm
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups?
So if a bitch came into season at the age of 23 months,and has had multiple seasons,and you had prelims on her you would absolutely not breed her ?
Laura Wood
Woods Hafen GSP's
From: Ann Wallace <askmegsp@aol.com>
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Sent: Sun, July 10, 2011 5:40:07 PM
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups?
Assuming the bitch has prlim due to her age, off the top of my head I can't think of a reason I wouldn''t be patient enough to wait until the full OFA certification. After all, if the dog is old, you can collect him and use it when the bitch is old enough. Also, with a bitch I worry about mental maturity. Shehas to care for her puppies. I think breeding too young or for the first litter over
-----Original Message-----
From: Laura Wood < woodshafengsps@yahoo.com>
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Sent: Sun, Jul 10, 2011 5:34 pm
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups?
Ann
Just wondering why you seem so dead set against breeding a bitch with just a prelim, but the sire would be ok ?? Honestly just wondering what's your reasoning ??
Laura Wood
Woods Hafen GSP's
From: Ann Wallace <askmegsp@aol.com>
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Sent: Sun, July 10, 2011 4:50:13 PM
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups?
Thanks for you post, Sue. I agree. I feel the original post was being aimed at me, although I don't consider myself "well known". Although I don't feel I owe explainations for breeding decsions I make to anyone when I believe the decision is what is best for my bitch. The breeding appears on my website with full disclosure that the sire's hips are "Prelim". Just like any other litter I produce, I will stand behind my puppies, in writing, that they will be clear of hip displasia and any other hereditary disorder.
The information in the original post is NOT accurate. To my knowledge, the first bitch bred to the dog was 8 years old. The bitch had never been bred before. You would have to speak to that breeder for her reasoning but I would imagine age was a deciding factor. Although it really is no one elses business but her own. My bitch is 4 years old and comes in season once a year. Until now I had not found "the" dog I thought would bring what I feel she needs to the table, and one with a pedigree I wanted to work with. She has never been bred before, and I preferred not to let her be 5 years old for her first litter. My decison and I believe reasonable. Would I ever breed a bitch on a prelim ? H#@@ no. Can't think of a reason to ever do that.
On the off chance that the original post was a sincere attempt to learn about why breeders make the decisions they do, I have responded. On the more likely chance that it was one more attempt to point fingers and find fault, I have one suggestion. It would be far more positive and productive to use one's energy to try to educate the breeders, of which there are many, to do all health clearances, not just hips, to sell their puppies on spay/neuter contracts, to stand behind the puppies in writing. I am not pointing fingers, just saying that to make a positive impact on this breed we can go alot farther by using positive means.
Ann
Olde Ridge
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catherine.iacopelli
JH
Posts:24
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| 08/05/2011 12:36 AM |
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On Sun, Jul 10, 2011 at 4:50 PM, Ann Wallace <askmegsp@aol.com> wrote:
I feel the original post was being aimed at me, although I don't consider myself "well known".
Ann
Olde Ridge
Let me set the record straight by quoting from my original post (as I am the "Original Poster"),
"Just an update. I sent this email to the list and got four replies. Two from breeders with health clearances on the parents as requested. Two from people expecting litters whose sires are not yet two years of age. "
Ann, did you write to me telling me you had a litter coming? Let me tell the others who do not know, no you did not. I do not visit your web site without reason, so I had no idea that you had a litter coming, I have no idea who you bred, or who you bred to. So my post was not aimed at you.
But now you have the fourth litter I have heard of in less that a week with a sire under two years of age, and I still honestly want to know if this is deemed by the GSP community to be OK now. Guess my answer is, depends on who you ask.
I like the suggestion to spend my time educating people about health clearances. I thought I did do that. But what do I tell them in the future? Maybe do whatever you like as long as you have a contrat that says you will take the bad puppies back? Or that you will give a refund to the heartbroken puppy owners of the ones that got the bad gene we didn't check for before breeding the litter? Years ago a promising young stud was bred to several bitches just before turning two. That day came, films were shot and sent to OFA and the dog came back displastic. I believe he had around five litters on the ground already. They had every reason to believe he would pass. That taught me a lesson I will not forget.
I know the world has gone the way of if it feels good do it. Is the GSP breed is going that way too?
Cathy
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dise454
MH
Posts:144
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| 08/05/2011 12:38 AM |
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| Laura, I don't think Ann is "absolutely" saying she wouldn't breed a bitch under 24 months. She's just giving her opinion. As with everyone in this thread it seems there will always be exceptions to our "rule of thumb" - things happen, life happens. All we can do is our best at any given time with what we have.
-----Original Message-----
From: Laura Wood
To: gsp-l
Sent: Sun, Jul 10, 2011 1:56 pm
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups?
So if a bitch came into season at the age of 23 months,and has had multiple seasons,and you had prelims on her you would absolutely not breed her ?
Laura Wood
Woods Hafen GSP's
From: Ann Wallace <askmegsp@aol.com>
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Sent: Sun, July 10, 2011 5:40:07 PM
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups?
Assuming the bitch has prlim due to her age, off the top of my head I can't think of a reason I wouldn''t be patient enough to wait until the full OFA certification. After all, if the dog is old, you can collect him and use it when the bitch is old enough. Also, with a bitch I worry about mental maturity. Shehas to care for her puppies. I think breeding too young or for the first litter over
-----Original Message-----
From: Laura Wood < woodshafengsps@yahoo.com>
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Sent: Sun, Jul 10, 2011 5:34 pm
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups?
Ann
Just wondering why you seem so dead set against breeding a bitch with just a prelim, but the sire would be ok ?? Honestly just wondering what's your reasoning ??
Laura Wood
Woods Hafen GSP's
From: Ann Wallace <askmegsp@aol.com>
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Sent: Sun, July 10, 2011 4:50:13 PM
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Pups?
Thanks for you post, Sue. I agree. I feel the original post was being aimed at me, although I don't consider myself "well known". Although I don't feel I owe explainations for breeding decsions I make to anyone when I believe the decision is what is best for my bitch. The breeding appears on my website with full disclosure that the sire's hips are "Prelim". Just like any other litter I produce, I will stand behind my puppies, in writing, that they will be clear of hip displasia and any other hereditary disorder.
The information in the original post is NOT accurate. To my knowledge, the first bitch bred to the dog was 8 years old. The bitch had never been bred before. You would have to speak to that breeder for her reasoning but I would imagine age was a deciding factor. Although it really is no one elses business but her own. My bitch is 4 years old and comes in season once a year. Until now I had not found "the" dog I thought would bring what I feel she needs to the table, and one with a pedigree I wanted to work with. She has never been bred before, and I preferred not to let her be 5 years old for her first litter. My decison and I believe reasonable. Would I ever breed a bitch on a prelim ? H#@@ no. Can't think of a reason to ever do that.
On the off chance that the original post was a sincere attempt to learn about why breeders make the decisions they do, I have responded. On the more likely chance that it was one more attempt to point fingers and find fault, I have one suggestion. It would be far more positive and productive to use one's energy to try to educate the breeders, of which there are many, to do all health clearances, not just hips, to sell their puppies on spay/neuter contracts, to stand behind the puppies in writing. I am not pointing fingers, just saying that to make a positive impact on this breed we can go alot farther by using positive means.
Ann
Olde Ridge
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