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gsp4k9snme
SH
Posts:46
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| 05/29/2011 7:22 PM |
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I never say much on this site but do pay attention and if I must say so myself, this has been not only a educational discussion, but it has been wonderful to have people so forthright, passionate, concerned respectful and civil. Kudos to a great group of breeders.
Tracey L. Skibo
From: White River
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Sent: Sun, May 29, 2011 3:13:39 PM
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] color test to order from UC Davis
Not arguing here, just being a very Curious George.
Is this dilute liver color within our Standard? If so what would be wrong with registering and selling a pup of this color? What about exhibiting this color variation in conformation? This is not quite the same thing as claiming a lemon is a rare "Gelber Brand". The color 'lemon' is clearly excluded from our standard. Is the Fancy in agreement that this is an undesirable color? I have my own personal preferences on color, yet I adamantly defend the legitimacy of any breed example with color and coat pattern that is within standard.
Char R
White River Shorthairs
whiteriver@embarqmail.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Gspdoo@aol.com
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Cc: Mariahgsps@aol.com
Sent: Friday, May 27, 2011 7:26:21 PM
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] color test to order from UC Davis
Hey Diane -- I can tell you are feeling better about all of this ---
First, I believe OFA only posts the results of genetic tests for diseases. If you look under labs, none of their color results -- which have been going along for a long time -- are posted. I suppose, if we felt it was important to post the not positive for MHLP results, Leita would have to contact OFA and set something up. I don't know how they would view this -- there is nothing wrong with a dog carrying the MHLP gene other than the originators of the breed chose to breed for dark liver rather than dilute. So they may or may not be willing to post the results on the website.
Second, UC Davis will have all of the results, just like Optigen has for CD. Periodically Optigen has been willing to say how many tests have been done and what the rate of carriers has been found (I think either Leita or Cathy has gotten that information and posted it to the List in the past). I think it would be helpful if Leita could set something up with UC Davis at the outset so that we can get some reports on the prevalence of MHLP in the breed, say every 6 months or so. That is an important fact to know -- whether this is an isolated instance or if it is more widespread.
Then it will be up to individual owners, either of dogs or bitches to make their results known -- certainly I would think people will be asking before they breed.
But there is an even wider issue -- I think if you would take the whole spectrum of GSP breeders around the country, most of them wouldn't think twice if a puppy like Val's showed up in their litter -- they would just think it is a little less brown than littermates, and the puppy would be registered and sold. Breeders don't know that this MHLP gene even exists -- none of us did before this week! What we want to prevent is people trying to sell these puppies as rare and highly priced, like some are apparently doing already with the yellow, saying they are gelber brand. We have an opportunity to get out ahead of this, declare it for what it is -- an undesired color (perhaps even put something on the GSPCA website under color) and make sure people don't try to mislead the public.
That puppy of Val's sure is cute! I can see where some potential buyers would pick her right out of the litter.
Sandra Kretz
MARIAH
In a message dated 5/27/2011 12:01:43 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, DJSLand@aol.com writes:
I havent been this talkative on this list in years !!! But at this point I wanted to take this discussion a bit further.
First, I want to thank Leita from the bottom of my heart. This outstanding woman has been my rock throughout this ordeal for me. Not only did she discover that UC Davis had a coat color genetic test for the dilute gene in less than 48 hours after my initial call to her - she has reached out to me as a friend and as a fellow breeder. My puppies are less than 2 weeks at this point and look at how much has been done in such a short time - pretty amazing !!!
So I have 4 "gray" puppies. So there is a test in place. So many people have said they will be testing their dogs. Now as a group are we ALL going to take the high road going forward ????????????
What I am wondering is will "all" breeders disclose the results from their tests or will we end up with a database similar to CD where people only send in "favorable" results ?? How does this help us as group of breeders ?? It really only serves the individual breeder if you keep your results private.
I am sure a handful of you on the list will be able to answer my next question(s). Is OFA the "keeper" of all of the CD test results ? Leita does it make sense to have OFA be the eventual registry for the dilute test results as well ? I really havent been on the OFA web site in quite awhile so excuse my ignorance but are the actual results (with dog info) for the CD test available to the public or do they just have numbers of how many tested, how many clear and how many carriers ?? What are our options moving forward with a database ??
I know people are afraid to send in undesirable results for any test. We are afraid of the harsh comments and the bad mouthing that follows - hey, now I know first hand how tough it can be. But this is a coat color gene test, this is not about dogs losing their eye sight. Can we work together as a community for a change ????????????
Diane / Panamint GSPs
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wyndbournegsp
MH
Posts:215
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| 05/30/2011 8:30 PM |
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What am I missing here, there are different shades of liver but as I last remember when you register a puppy the choices are white(not grey or silver) and liver, white, liver roan (might be able to get away with that one depending on how dark roan they are), liver and white or liver. I understand the test for the dilute factor but how really can you register these color wise. And how are they registering the lemon ones? Or does AKC not care since they never see the puppy and assume what is on the application is the truth? And most will agree that AKC never wants to get involved.
Sue
-----Original Message-----
From: Carol Cronk
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Sent: Sun, May 29, 2011 3:40 pm
Subject: RE: [gsp-l] color test to order from UC Davis
What about being able to show in the Field, Obedience, Rally or Agility. Isn’t the color disqualification only for Conformation shows?
Blacks can still be registered, so why not light brown or light liver?
Carol Cronk
Autumn's GSP's & PRT's
Home of CH Berihill Bye Bye Love JH "Candi"
Home of BOB Winner CH StoneBrook's Autumn Mist "Charli"
Home of the 2005 Westminster BIS NSC, BIS, BISS CH Kan-Points VJK Autumn Roses "CARLEE"
Not arguing here, just being a very Curious George.
Is this dilute liver color within our Standard? If so what would be wrong with registering and selling a pup of this color? What about exhibiting this color variation in conformation? This is not quite the same thing as claiming a lemon is a rare "Gelber Brand". The color 'lemon' is clearly excluded from our standard. Is the Fancy in agreement that this is an undesirable color? I have my own personal preferences on color, yet I adamantly defend the legitimacy of any breed example with color and coat pattern that is within standard.
Hey Diane -- I can tell you are feeling better about all of this ---
First, I believe OFA only posts the results of genetic tests for diseases. If you look under labs, none of their color results -- which have been going along for a long time -- are posted. I suppose, if we felt it was important to post the not positive for MHLP results, Leita would have to contact OFA and set something up. I don't know how they would view this -- there is nothing wrong with a dog carrying the MHLP gene other than the originators of the breed chose to breed for dark liver rather than dilute. So they may or may not be willing to post the results on the website.
Second, UC Davis will have all of the results, just like Optigen has for CD. Periodically Optigen has been willing to say how many tests have been done and what the rate of carriers has been found (I think either Leita or Cathy has gotten that information and posted it to the List in the past). I think it would be helpful if Leita could set something up with UC Davis at the outset so that we can get some reports on the prevalence of MHLP in the breed, say every 6 months or so. That is an important fact to know -- whether this is an isolated instance or if it is more widespread.
Then it will be up to individual owners, either of dogs or bitches to make their results known -- certainly I would think people will be asking before they breed.
But there is an even wider issue -- I think if you would take the whole spectrum of GSP breeders around the country, most of them wouldn't think twice if a puppy like Val's showed up in their litter -- they would just think it is a little less brown than littermates, and the puppy would be registered and sold. Breeders don't know that this MHLP gene even exists -- none of us did before this week! What we want to prevent is people trying to sell these puppies as rare and highly priced, like some are apparently doing already with the yellow, saying they are gelber brand. We have an opportunity to get out ahead of this, declare it for what it is -- an undesired color (perhaps even put something on the GSPCA website under color) and make sure people don't try to mislead the public.
That puppy of Val's sure is cute! I can see where some potential buyers would pick her right out of the litter.
I havent been this talkative on this list in years !!! But at this point I wanted to take this discussion a bit further.
First, I want to thank Leita from the bottom of my heart. This outstanding woman has been my rock throughout this ordeal for me. Not only did she discover that UC Davis had a coat color genetic test for the dilute gene in less than 48 hours after my initial call to her - she has reached out to me as a friend and as a fellow breeder. My puppies are less than 2 weeks at this point and look at how much has been done in such a short time - pretty amazing !!!
So I have 4 "gray" puppies. So there is a test in place. So many people have said they will be testing their dogs. Now as a group are we ALL going to take the high road going forward ????????????
What I am wondering is will "all" breeders disclose the results from their tests or will we end up with a database similar to CD where people only send in "favorable" results ?? How does this help us as group of breeders ?? It really only serves the individual breeder if you keep your results private.
I am sure a handful of you on the list will be able to answer my next question(s). Is OFA the "keeper" of all of the CD test results ? Leita does it make sense to have OFA be the eventual registry for the dilute test results as well ? I really havent been on the OFA web site in quite awhile so excuse my ignorance but are the actual results (with dog info) for the CD test available to the public or do they just have numbers of how many tested, how many clear and how many carriers ?? What are our options moving forward with a database ??
I know people are afraid to send in undesirable results for any test. We are afraid of the harsh comments and the bad mouthing that follows - hey, now I know first hand how tough it can be. But this is a coat color gene test, this is not about dogs losing their eye sight. Can we work together as a community for a change ????????????
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 10.0.1375 / Virus Database: 1509/3667 - Release Date: 05/29/11
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shortales
MH
Posts:336
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| 05/30/2011 8:30 PM |
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I think before we do anything about this and registrations we need to do data collection. If at that time we have suffcient data we would need to address this with the BOD.
Leita Estes Shortales German Shorthaired Pointers 1 Spotty dog (Dalmatian) Ch. Merry Go Rounds Match Point
From: Carol Cronk
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2011 12:40 PM
Subject: RE: [gsp-l] color test to order from UC Davis
What about being able to show in the Field, Obedience, Rally or Agility. Isn’t the color disqualification only for Conformation shows? Blacks can still be registered, so why not light brown or light liver? Carol Cronk Autumn's GSP's & PRT's Home of CH Berihill Bye Bye Love JH "Candi" Home of BOB Winner CH StoneBrook's Autumn Mist "Charli" Home of the 2005 Westminster BIS NSC, BIS, BISS CH Kan-Points VJK Autumn Roses "CARLEE" From: gsp-l-request@shorthairs.net [mailto:gsp-l-request@shorthairs.net] On Behalf Of White River
Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2011 12:14 PM
To:
gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] color test to order from UC Davis Not arguing here, just being a very Curious George. Is this dilute liver color within our Standard? If so what would be wrong with registering and selling a pup of this color? What about exhibiting this color variation in conformation? This is not quite the same thing as claiming a lemon is a rare "Gelber Brand". The color 'lemon' is clearly
excluded from our standard. Is the Fancy in agreement that this is an undesirable color? I have my own personal preferences on color, yet I adamantly defend the legitimacy of any breed example with color and coat pattern that is within standard.
Char R
White River Shorthairs
whiteriver@embarqmail.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Gspdoo@aol.com
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Cc: Mariahgsps@aol.com
Sent: Friday, May 27, 2011 7:26:21 PM
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] color test to order from UC Davis
Hey Diane -- I can tell you are feeling better about all of this
--- First, I believe OFA only posts the results of genetic tests for diseases. If you look under labs, none of their color results -- which have been going along for a long time -- are posted. I suppose, if we felt it was important to post the not positive for MHLP results, Leita would have to contact OFA and set something up. I don't know how they would view this -- there is nothing wrong
with a dog carrying the MHLP gene other than the originators of the breed chose to breed for dark liver rather than dilute. So they may or may not be willing to post the results on the website. Second, UC Davis will have all of the results, just like Optigen has for CD. Periodically Optigen has been willing to say how many tests have been done and what the rate of carriers has been found (I think either Leita or Cathy has gotten that information and
posted it to the List in the past). I think it would be helpful if Leita could set something up with UC Davis at the outset so that we can get some reports on the prevalence of MHLP in the breed, say every 6 months or so. That is an important fact to know -- whether this is an isolated instance or if it is more widespread. Then it will be up to individual owners, either of dogs or bitches to make their results known -- certainly I would think people will be asking before they breed. But there is an even wider issue -- I think if you would take the whole spectrum of GSP breeders around the country, most of them wouldn't think twice if a puppy like Val's showed up in their litter -- they would just think it is a little less brown than littermates, and the puppy would be registered and sold. Breeders don't know that this MHLP gene even exists -- none of us did before this week! What we want to prevent is people trying to sell these puppies as rare and highly
priced, like some are apparently doing already with the yellow, saying they are gelber brand. We have an opportunity to get out ahead of this, declare it for what it is -- an undesired color (perhaps even put something on the GSPCA website under color) and make sure people don't try to mislead the public. That puppy of Val's sure is cute! I can see where some potential buyers would pick her right out of the litter. In a message dated 5/27/2011 12:01:43 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, DJSLand@aol.com writes: I havent been this talkative on this list in years !!! But at this point I wanted to take this discussion a bit further. First, I want to thank Leita from the bottom of my heart. This outstanding woman has been my rock throughout this ordeal for me. Not only did she discover that UC Davis had
a coat color genetic test for the dilute gene in less than 48 hours after my initial call to her - she has reached out to me as a friend and as a fellow breeder. My puppies are less than 2 weeks at this point and look at how much has been done in such a short time - pretty amazing !!! So I have 4 "gray" puppies. So there is a test in place. So many people have said they will be testing their dogs. Now as a group are we ALL going to take the high road going forward ???????????? What I am wondering is will "all" breeders disclose the results from their tests or will we end up with a database similar to CD where people only send in "favorable" results ?? How does this help us as group of breeders ?? It really only serves the individual breeder if you keep your results private. I am sure a handful of you on the list will be able to answer my next question(s). Is OFA the "keeper" of all of the CD test results ?
Leita does it make sense to have OFA be the eventual registry for the dilute test results as well ? I really havent been on the OFA web site in quite awhile so excuse my ignorance but are the actual results (with dog info) for the CD test available to the public or do they just have numbers of how many tested, how many clear and how many carriers ?? What are our options moving forward with a database ?? I know people are afraid to send in undesirable results for any
test. We are afraid of the harsh comments and the bad mouthing that follows - hey, now I know first hand how tough it can be. But this is a coat color gene test, this is not about dogs losing their eye sight. Can we work together as a community for a change ????????????
No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.comVersion: 10.0.1375 / Virus Database: 1509/3667 - Release Date: 05/29/11 |
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ingeclody
San Diego
MH
Posts:115
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| 05/30/2011 8:30 PM |
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Some where around 1970 a lemon and white GSP was being shown. I wrote to AKC about the color. I don't remember what the response was but I do know nothing was done about it.
.
--- On Mon, 5/30/11, wyndbournegsp@aol.com wrote:
From: wyndbournegsp@aol.com
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] color test to order from UC Davis
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Date: Monday, May 30, 2011, 6:33 AM
What am I missing here, there are different shades of liver but as I last remember when you register a puppy the choices are white(not grey or silver) and liver, white, liver roan (might be able to get away with that one depending on how dark roan they are), liver and white or liver. I understand the test for the dilute factor but how really can you register these color wise. And how are they registering the lemon ones? Or does AKC not care since they never see the puppy and assume what is on the application is the truth? And most will agree that AKC never wants to get involved.
Sue
-----Original Message----- From: Carol Cronk
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Sent: Sun, May 29, 2011 3:40 pm
Subject: RE: [gsp-l] color test to order from UC Davis
What about being able to show in the Field, Obedience, Rally or Agility. Isn’t the color disqualification only for Conformation shows?
Blacks can still be registered, so why not light brown or light liver?
Carol Cronk
Autumn's GSP's & PRT's
Home of CH Berihill Bye Bye Love JH "Candi"
Home of BOB Winner CH StoneBrook's Autumn Mist "Charli"
Home of the 2005 Westminster BIS NSC, BIS, BISS CH Kan-Points VJK Autumn Roses "CARLEE"
Not arguing here, just being a very Curious George.
Is this dilute liver color within our Standard? If so what would be wrong with registering and selling a pup of this color? What about exhibiting this color variation in conformation? This is not quite the same thing as claiming a lemon is a rare "Gelber Brand". The color 'lemon' is clearly excluded from our standard. Is the Fancy in agreement that this is an undesirable color? I have my own personal preferences on color, yet I adamantly defend the legitimacy of any breed example with color and coat pattern that is within standard.
Hey Diane -- I can tell you are feeling better about all of this ---
First, I believe OFA only posts the results of genetic tests for diseases. If you look under labs, none of their color results -- which have been going along for a long time -- are posted. I suppose, if we felt it was important to post the not positive for MHLP results, Leita would have to contact OFA and set something up. I don't know how they would view this -- there is nothing wrong with a dog carrying the MHLP gene other than the originators of the breed chose to breed for dark liver rather than dilute. So they may or may not be willing to post the results on the website.
Second, UC Davis will have all of the results, just like Optigen has for CD. Periodically Optigen has been willing to say how many tests have been done and what the rate of carriers has been found (I think either Leita or Cathy has gotten that information and posted it to the List in the past). I think it would be helpful if Leita could set something up with UC Davis at the outset so that we can get some reports on the prevalence of MHLP in the breed, say every 6 months or so. That is an important fact to know -- whether this is an isolated instance or if it is more widespread.
Then it will be up to individual owners, either of dogs or bitches to make their results known -- certainly I would think people will be asking before they breed.
But there is an even wider issue -- I think if you would take the whole spectrum of GSP breeders around the country, most of them wouldn't think twice if a puppy like Val's showed up in their litter -- they would just think it is a little less brown than littermates, and the puppy would be registered and sold. Breeders don't know that this MHLP gene even exists -- none of us did before this week! What we want to prevent is people trying to sell these puppies as rare and highly priced, like some are apparently doing already with the yellow, saying they are gelber brand. We have an opportunity to get out ahead of this, declare it for what it is -- an undesired color (perhaps even put something on the GSPCA website under color) and make sure people
don't try to mislead the public.
That puppy of Val's sure is cute! I can see where some potential buyers would pick her right out of the litter.
I havent been this talkative on this list in years !!! But at this point I wanted to take this discussion a bit further.
First, I want to thank Leita from the bottom of my heart. This outstanding woman has been my rock throughout this ordeal for me. Not only did she discover that UC Davis had a coat color genetic test for the dilute gene in less than 48 hours after my initial call to her - she has reached out to me as a friend and as a fellow breeder. My puppies are less than 2 weeks at this point and look at how much has been done in such a short time - pretty amazing !!!
So I have 4 "gray" puppies. So there is a test in place. So many people have said they will be testing their dogs. Now as a group are we ALL going to take the high road going forward ????????????
What I am wondering is will "all" breeders disclose the results from their tests or will we end up with a database similar to CD where people only send in "favorable" results ?? How does this help us as group of breeders ?? It really only serves the individual breeder if you keep your results private.
I am sure a handful of you on the list will be able to answer my next question(s). Is OFA the "keeper" of all of the CD test results ? Leita does it make sense to have OFA be the eventual registry for the dilute test results as well ? I really havent been on the OFA web site in quite awhile so excuse my ignorance but are the actual results (with dog info) for the CD test available to the public or do they just have numbers of how many tested, how many clear and how many carriers ?? What are our options moving forward with a database ??
I know people are afraid to send in undesirable results for any test. We are afraid of the harsh comments and the bad mouthing that follows - hey, now I know first hand how tough it can be. But this is a coat color gene test, this is not about dogs losing their eye sight. Can we work together as a community for a change ????????????
No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.comVersion: 10.0.1375 / Virus Database: 1509/3667 - Release Date: 05/29/11
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whiteriver
Posts:40
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| 05/30/2011 8:30 PM |
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My confusion/curiosity about the dillute color has to do with the impression the dillute color is still liver (of sorts ) - which could just be my computer screen 
Char R
White River Shorthairs
www.whiterivershorthairs.com
----- Original Message ----- From: wyndbournegsp@aol.com To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net Sent: Monday, May 30, 2011 9:33:01 AM Subject: Re: [gsp-l] color test to order from UC Davis
What am I missing here, there are different shades of liver but as I last remember when you register a puppy the choices are white(not grey or silver) and liver, white, liver roan (might be able to get away with that one depending on how dark roan they are), liver and white or liver. I understand the test for the dilute factor but how really can you register these color wise. And how are they registering the lemon ones? Or does AKC not care since they never see the puppy and assume what is on the application is the truth? And most will agree that AKC never wants to get involved.
Sue
-----Original Message----- From: Carol Cronk
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Sent: Sun, May 29, 2011 3:40 pm
Subject: RE: [gsp-l] color test to order from UC Davis
What about being able to show in the Field, Obedience, Rally or Agility. Isn’t the color disqualification only for Conformation shows?
Blacks can still be registered, so why not light brown or light liver?
Carol Cronk
Autumn's GSP's & PRT's
Home of CH Berihill Bye Bye Love JH "Candi"
Home of BOB Winner CH StoneBrook's Autumn Mist "Charli"
Home of the 2005 Westminster BIS NSC, BIS, BISS CH Kan-Points VJK Autumn Roses "CARLEE"
Not arguing here, just being a very Curious George.
Is this dilute liver color within our Standard? If so what would be wrong with registering and selling a pup of this color? What about exhibiting this color variation in conformation? This is not quite the same thing as claiming a lemon is a rare "Gelber Brand". The color 'lemon' is clearly excluded from our standard. Is the Fancy in agreement that this is an undesirable color? I have my own personal preferences on color, yet I adamantly defend the legitimacy of any breed example with color and coat pattern that is within standard.
Hey Diane -- I can tell you are feeling better about all of this ---
First, I believe OFA only posts the results of genetic tests for diseases. If you look under labs, none of their color results -- which have been going along for a long time -- are posted. I suppose, if we felt it was important to post the not positive for MHLP results, Leita would have to contact OFA and set something up. I don't know how they would view this -- there is nothing wrong with a dog carrying the MHLP gene other than the originators of the breed chose to breed for dark liver rather than dilute. So they may or may not be willing to post the results on the website.
Second, UC Davis will have all of the results, just like Optigen has for CD. Periodically Optigen has been willing to say how many tests have been done and what the rate of carriers has been found (I think either Leita or Cathy has gotten that information and posted it to the List in the past). I think it would be helpful if Leita could set something up with UC Davis at the outset so that we can get some reports on the prevalence of MHLP in the breed, say every 6 months or so. That is an important fact to know -- whether this is an isolated instance or if it is more widespread.
Then it will be up to individual owners, either of dogs or bitches to make their results known -- certainly I would think people will be asking before they breed.
But there is an even wider issue -- I think if you would take the whole spectrum of GSP breeders around the country, most of them wouldn't think twice if a puppy like Val's showed up in their litter -- they would just think it is a little less brown than littermates, and the puppy would be registered and sold. Breeders don't know that this MHLP gene even exists -- none of us did before this week! What we want to prevent is people trying to sell these puppies as rare and highly priced, like some are apparently doing already with the yellow, saying they are gelber brand. We have an opportunity to get out ahead of this, declare it for what it is -- an undesired color (perhaps even put something on the GSPCA website under color) and make sure people don't try to mislead the public.
That puppy of Val's sure is cute! I can see where some potential buyers would pick her right out of the litter.
I havent been this talkative on this list in years !!! But at this point I wanted to take this discussion a bit further.
First, I want to thank Leita from the bottom of my heart. This outstanding woman has been my rock throughout this ordeal for me. Not only did she discover that UC Davis had a coat color genetic test for the dilute gene in less than 48 hours after my initial call to her - she has reached out to me as a friend and as a fellow breeder. My puppies are less than 2 weeks at this point and look at how much has been done in such a short time - pretty amazing !!!
So I have 4 "gray" puppies. So there is a test in place. So many people have said they will be testing their dogs. Now as a group are we ALL going to take the high road going forward ????????????
What I am wondering is will "all" breeders disclose the results from their tests or will we end up with a database similar to CD where people only send in "favorable" results ?? How does this help us as group of breeders ?? It really only serves the individual breeder if you keep your results private.
I am sure a handful of you on the list will be able to answer my next question(s). Is OFA the "keeper" of all of the CD test results ? Leita does it make sense to have OFA be the eventual registry for the dilute test results as well ? I really havent been on the OFA web site in quite awhile so excuse my ignorance but are the actual results (with dog info) for the CD test available to the public or do they just have numbers of how many tested, how many clear and how many carriers ?? What are our options moving forward with a database ??
I know people are afraid to send in undesirable results for any test. We are afraid of the harsh comments and the bad mouthing that follows - hey, now I know first hand how tough it can be. But this is a coat color gene test, this is not about dogs losing their eye sight. Can we work together as a community for a change ????????????
No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.comVersion: 10.0.1375 / Virus Database: 1509/3667 - Release Date: 05/29/11
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wyndbournegsp
MH
Posts:215
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| 05/30/2011 8:57 PM |
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Doesn't surprise me!
-----Original Message-----
From: Inge Clody
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Sent: Mon, May 30, 2011 1:17 pm
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] color test to order from UC Davis
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Some where around 1970 a lemon and white GSP was being shown. I wrote to AKC about the color. I don't remember what the response was but I do know nothing was done about it.
.
From: wyndbournegsp@aol.com <wyndbournegsp@aol.com>
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] color test to order from UC Davis
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Date: Monday, May 30, 2011, 6:33 AM
What am I missing here, there are different shades of liver but as I last remember when you register a puppy the choices are white(not grey or silver) and liver, white, liver roan (might be able to get away with that one depending on how dark roan they are), liver and white or liver. I understand the test for the dilute factor but how really can you register these color wise. And how are they registering the lemon ones? Or does AKC not care since they never see the puppy and assume what is on the application is the truth? And most will agree that AKC never wants to get involved.
Sue
-----Original Message-----
From: Carol Cronk < autumnsgsp@earthlink.net>
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Sent: Sun, May 29, 2011 3:40 pm
Subject: RE: [gsp-l] color test to order from UC Davis
What about being able to show in the Field, Obedience, Rally or Agility. Isn’t the color disqualification only for Conformation shows?
Blacks can still be registered, so why not light brown or light liver?
Carol Cronk
Autumn's GSP's & PRT's
Home of CH Berihill Bye Bye Love JH "Candi"
Home of BOB Winner CH StoneBrook's Autumn Mist "Charli"
Home of the 2005 Westminster BIS NSC, BIS, BISS CH Kan-Points VJK Autumn Roses "CARLEE"
Not arguing here, just being a very Curious George.
Is this dilute liver color within our Standard? If so what would be wrong with registering and selling a pup of this color? What about exhibiting this color variation in conformation? This is not quite the same thing as claiming a lemon is a rare "Gelber Brand". The color 'lemon' is clearly excluded from our standard. Is the Fancy in agreement that this is an undesirable color? I have my own personal preferences on color, yet I adamantly defend the legitimacy of any breed example with color and coat pattern that is within standard.
Hey Diane -- I can tell you are feeling better about all of this ---
First, I believe OFA only posts the results of genetic tests for diseases. If you look under labs, none of their color results -- which have been going along for a long time -- are posted. I suppose, if we felt it was important to post the not positive for MHLP results, Leita would have to contact OFA and set something up. I don't know how they would view this -- there is nothing wrong with a dog carrying the MHLP gene other than the originators of the breed chose to breed for dark liver rather than dilute. So they may or may not be willing to post the results on the website.
Second, UC Davis will have all of the results, just like Optigen has for CD. Periodically Optigen has been willing to say how many tests have been done and what the rate of carriers has been found (I think either Leita or Cathy has gotten that information and posted it to the List in the past). I think it would be helpful if Leita could set something up with UC Davis at the outset so that we can get some reports on the prevalence of MHLP in the breed, say every 6 months or so. That is an important fact to know -- whether this is an isolated instance or if it is more widespread.
Then it will be up to individual owners, either of dogs or bitches to make their results known -- certainly I would think people will be asking before they breed.
But there is an even wider issue -- I think if you would take the whole spectrum of GSP breeders around the country, most of them wouldn't think twice if a puppy like Val's showed up in their litter -- they would just think it is a little less brown than littermates, and the puppy would be registered and sold. Breeders don't know that this MHLP gene even exists -- none of us did before this week! What we want to prevent is people trying to sell these puppies as rare and highly priced, like some are apparently doing already with the yellow, saying they are gelber brand. We have an opportunity to get out ahead of this, declare it for what it is -- an undesired color (perhaps even put something on the GSPCA website under color) and make sure people don't try to mislead the public.
That puppy of Val's sure is cute! I can see where some potential buyers would pick her right out of the litter.
In a message dated 5/27/2011 12:01:43 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, DJSLand@aol.com writes:
I havent been this talkative on this list in years !!! But at this point I wanted to take this discussion a bit further.
First, I want to thank Leita from the bottom of my heart. This outstanding woman has been my rock throughout this ordeal for me. Not only did she discover that UC Davis had a coat color genetic test for the dilute gene in less than 48 hours after my initial call to her - she has reached out to me as a friend and as a fellow breeder. My puppies are less than 2 weeks at this point and look at how much has been done in such a short time - pretty amazing !!!
So I have 4 "gray" puppies. So there is a test in place. So many people have said they will be testing their dogs. Now as a group are we ALL going to take the high road going forward ????????????
What I am wondering is will "all" breeders disclose the results from their tests or will we end up with a database similar to CD where people only send in "favorable" results ?? How does this help us as group of breeders ?? It really only serves the individual breeder if you keep your results private.
I am sure a handful of you on the list will be able to answer my next question(s). Is OFA the "keeper" of all of the CD test results ? Leita does it make sense to have OFA be the eventual registry for the dilute test results as well ? I really havent been on the OFA web site in quite awhile so excuse my ignorance but are the actual results (with dog info) for the CD test available to the public or do they just have numbers of how many tested, how many clear and how many carriers ?? What are our options moving forward with a database ??
I know people are afraid to send in undesirable results for any test. We are afraid of the harsh comments and the bad mouthing that follows - hey, now I know first hand how tough it can be. But this is a coat color gene test, this is not about dogs losing their eye sight. Can we work together as a community for a change ????????????
No virus found in this message.
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bajnok
MH
Posts:67
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| 06/02/2011 7:01 PM |
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In a way, yes. The dog is still genetically liver (bb at that locus)
Sent: Monday, May 30, 2011 3:59 PM
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] color test to order from UC
Davis
My
confusion/curiosity about the dillute color has to do with the impression the
dillute color is still liver (of sorts ) - which could just be my computer
screen
Char R
White River
Shorthairs
www.whiterivershorthairs.com
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DJSLand
JH
Posts:24
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| 06/05/2011 10:22 AM |
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My "Gray" Litter Cont.
So the magnificent "7" will be 3 weeks old tomorrow. All pups are
doing great, gaining weight, walking (not trotting just yet), barking a bit and
starting to play with toys and each other. Just love this age when
everything is new to them.
Thought I would try to better explain the color. I have been calling
them "gray". Some have coined them as "grey", "silver" or even
"blue". Well they are far from being silver or blue which I would
call "cool" colors. I would call it a very, very "warm" gray but could be
leaning towards a dark taupe. I do think it is similar to the Weim
color. Interesting to see the range of "gray" just like we see varation in
the lightness or darkness in the liver and white puppies. Remember they
are patched and ticked, not solid gray.
Sorry I cant forward photos to the list. I did have a friend post
some on facebook about 10 days ago so those of you on facebook can go directly
to my wall to see some puppy photos. I also have some photos that I can
forward privately to anyone interested in seeing them.
Diane / Panamint GSPs
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berihill
MH
Posts:271
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| 06/05/2011 11:03 AM |
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Thank you Diane for all of your info on this "color" that is potentially in our breed. Correct me if I am wrong, but I am understanding this is really a dilute form of liver not an entirely different color (as I would think of Weim gray?). It seems GSPs can harbor a gene that dilutes the normal liver to a more grayed tone? Is this correct?
I have ordered the test for a couple of my dogs, hopefully others will do the same.
From: "DJSLand@aol.com"
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Sent: Sunday, June 5, 2011 11:19 AM
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] color test to order from UC Davis
My "Gray" Litter Cont.
So the magnificent "7" will be 3 weeks old tomorrow. All pups are doing great, gaining weight, walking (not trotting just yet), barking a bit and starting to play with toys and each other. Just love this age when everything is new to them.
Thought I would try to better explain the color. I have been calling them "gray". Some have coined them as "grey", "silver" or even "blue". Well they are far from being silver or blue which I would call "cool" colors. I would call it a very, very "warm" gray but could be leaning towards a dark taupe. I do think it is similar to the Weim color. Interesting to see the range of "gray" just like we see varation in the lightness or darkness in the liver and white puppies. Remember they are patched and ticked, not solid gray.
Sorry I cant forward photos to the list. I did have a friend post some on facebook about 10 days ago so those of you on facebook can go directly to my wall to see some puppy photos. I also have some photos that I can forward privately to anyone interested in seeing them.
Diane / Panamint GSPs |
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escampbell
MH
Posts:213
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| 06/05/2011 5:42 PM |
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I don'twant to hijack the thread, but it is my two GSPs whose LD test results are recorded on the OFA site. I sent in copies of the official test results, an explanatory, typed cover letter with date, signature, names, breeds of dogs, AKC numbers, etc. And I included the required fee. No problem. The results were posted promptly. My two dogs are Dunstanburgh Priceless and Sunshines Bright Dunstanburgh.
Test results are best if publicized. When I die, my nieces will have no idea what to do with my various files. I did not realize that color tests were not on the OFA site.
Eleanor Campbell
New Jersey |
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Eleanor Campbell
New Jersey
Sydney, Presto, Price, Ozma and Soleil |
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shortales
MH
Posts:336
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| 06/07/2011 1:00 AM |
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Jen It is a separate gene that dilutes color examples; it dilutes black and tan Dobes to blur dobes, it is the same dilution as in Weims (they are genetically liver) as well as what we are seeing in GSP diluting liver to grey. As I have said in an earlier post we are in the data collection mode to first be sure the test on Diane's litter comes back as indicated and then to see the extent of carriers we have. This if pans out as expected in GSP's will be yet another tool in our tool box. Leita Estes Shortales German Shorthaired Pointers 1 Spotty dog (Dalmatian) Ch. Merry Go Rounds Match Point
From: Berihill
To: "gsp-l@shorthairs.net"
Sent: Sunday, June 5, 2011 9:58 AM
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] color test to order from UC Davis
Thank you Diane for all of your info on this "color" that is potentially in our breed. Correct me if I am wrong, but I am understanding this is really a dilute form of liver not an entirely different color (as I would think of Weim gray?). It seems GSPs can harbor a gene that dilutes the normal liver to a more grayed tone? Is this correct?
I have ordered the test for a couple of my dogs, hopefully others will do the same.
From: "DJSLand@aol.com"
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Sent: Sunday, June 5, 2011 11:19 AM
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] color test to order from UC Davis
My "Gray" Litter Cont.
So the magnificent "7" will be 3 weeks old tomorrow. All pups are doing great, gaining weight, walking (not trotting just yet), barking a bit and starting to play with toys and each other. Just love this age when everything is new to them.
Thought I would try to better explain the color. I have been calling them "gray". Some have coined them as "grey", "silver" or even "blue". Well they are far from being silver or blue which I would call "cool" colors. I would call it a very, very "warm" gray but could be leaning towards a dark taupe. I do think it is similar to the Weim color. Interesting to see the range of "gray" just like we see varation in the lightness or darkness in the liver and white puppies. Remember they are patched and ticked, not solid gray.
Sorry I cant forward photos to the list. I did have a friend post some on facebook about 10 days ago so those of you on facebook can go directly to my wall to see some puppy photos. I also have some photos that I can forward privately to anyone interested in seeing them.
Diane / Panamint GSPs |
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berihill
MH
Posts:271
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| 06/07/2011 1:00 AM |
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Thank you Leita, for the explanation. So the assumption at this point is, GSPs affected are bb (liver) as their "color" gene, but just also have this dilute factor. My other breed, Border Collies, also have a dilution factor that dilutes black to "Blue" (looks gray) or brown to "Lilac" (Pale gray, purple tint). Jennifer Mills ~ Berihill GSPs & BCs www.berihill.com
From: Leita Estes
To: "gsp-l@shorthairs.net"
Sent: Monday, June 6, 2011 10:29 AM
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] color test to order from UC Davis
Jen
It is a separate gene that dilutes color examples; it dilutes black and tan Dobes to blur dobes, it is the same dilution as in Weims (they are genetically liver) as well as what we are seeing in GSP diluting liver to grey.
As I have said in an earlier post we are in the data collection mode to first be sure the test on Diane's litter comes back as indicated and then to see the extent of carriers we have. This if pans out as expected in GSP's will be yet another tool in our tool box.
Leita Estes Shortales German Shorthaired Pointers 1 Spotty dog (Dalmatian) Ch. Merry Go Rounds Match Point
From: Berihill
To: "gsp-l@shorthairs.net"
Sent: Sunday, June 5, 2011 9:58 AM
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] color test to order from UC Davis
Thank you Diane for all of your info on this "color" that is potentially in our breed. Correct me if I am wrong, but I am understanding this is really a dilute form of liver not an entirely different color (as I would think of Weim gray?). It seems GSPs can harbor a gene that dilutes the normal liver to a more grayed tone? Is this correct?
I have ordered the test for a couple of my dogs, hopefully others will do the same.
From: "DJSLand@aol.com"
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Sent: Sunday, June 5, 2011 11:19 AM
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] color test to order from UC Davis
My "Gray" Litter Cont.
So the magnificent "7" will be 3 weeks old tomorrow. All pups are doing great, gaining weight, walking (not trotting just yet), barking a bit and starting to play with toys and each other. Just love this age when everything is new to them.
Thought I would try to better explain the color. I have been calling them "gray". Some have coined them as "grey", "silver" or even "blue". Well they are far from being silver or blue which I would call "cool" colors. I would call it a very, very "warm" gray but could be leaning towards a dark taupe. I do think it is similar to the Weim color. Interesting to see the range of "gray" just like we see varation in the lightness or darkness in the liver and white puppies. Remember they are patched and ticked, not solid gray.
Sorry I cant forward photos to the list. I did have a friend post some on facebook about 10 days ago so those of you on facebook can go directly to my wall to see some puppy photos. I also have some photos that I can forward privately to anyone interested in seeing them.
Diane / Panamint GSPs |
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berihill
MH
Posts:271
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| 06/07/2011 1:00 AM |
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And thank you for the info on Weims!!! I didn't know (never really thought about it or owned a weim) that Weims are dilute, solid livers???...wow interesting.
But I have bred/owned a number of "blue" border collies....perfectly legitimate color in BCs.
From: Leita Estes
To: "gsp-l@shorthairs.net"
Sent: Monday, June 6, 2011 10:29 AM
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] color test to order from UC Davis
Jen
It is a separate gene that dilutes color examples; it dilutes black and tan Dobes to blur dobes, it is the same dilution as in Weims (they are genetically liver) as well as what we are seeing in GSP diluting liver to grey.
As I have said in an earlier post we are in the data collection mode to first be sure the test on Diane's litter comes back as indicated and then to see the extent of carriers we have. This if pans out as expected in GSP's will be yet another tool in our tool box.
Leita Estes Shortales German Shorthaired Pointers 1 Spotty dog (Dalmatian) Ch. Merry Go Rounds Match Point
From: Berihill
To: "gsp-l@shorthairs.net"
Sent: Sunday, June 5, 2011 9:58 AM
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] color test to order from UC Davis
Thank you Diane for all of your info on this "color" that is potentially in our breed. Correct me if I am wrong, but I am understanding this is really a dilute form of liver not an entirely different color (as I would think of Weim gray?). It seems GSPs can harbor a gene that dilutes the normal liver to a more grayed tone? Is this correct?
I have ordered the test for a couple of my dogs, hopefully others will do the same.
From: "DJSLand@aol.com"
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Sent: Sunday, June 5, 2011 11:19 AM
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] color test to order from UC Davis
My "Gray" Litter Cont.
So the magnificent "7" will be 3 weeks old tomorrow. All pups are doing great, gaining weight, walking (not trotting just yet), barking a bit and starting to play with toys and each other. Just love this age when everything is new to them.
Thought I would try to better explain the color. I have been calling them "gray". Some have coined them as "grey", "silver" or even "blue". Well they are far from being silver or blue which I would call "cool" colors. I would call it a very, very "warm" gray but could be leaning towards a dark taupe. I do think it is similar to the Weim color. Interesting to see the range of "gray" just like we see varation in the lightness or darkness in the liver and white puppies. Remember they are patched and ticked, not solid gray.
Sorry I cant forward photos to the list. I did have a friend post some on facebook about 10 days ago so those of you on facebook can go directly to my wall to see some puppy photos. I also have some photos that I can forward privately to anyone interested in seeing them.
Diane / Panamint GSPs |
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berihill
MH
Posts:271
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| 06/07/2011 1:01 AM |
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Well if all the theories hold true in the testing...it makes perfect sense how this "dilute" could show up in a litter of GSPs. GSPs and Weims clearly share a common ancestry in the foundations of both breeds...these genes apparently are recessives, and it's almost impossible to remove all unwanted recessives from a population.
Am grateful we have testing for many of these recessives today.
From: Leita Estes
To: "gsp-l@shorthairs.net"
Sent: Monday, June 6, 2011 10:29 AM
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] color test to order from UC Davis
Jen
It is a separate gene that dilutes color examples; it dilutes black and tan Dobes to blur dobes, it is the same dilution as in Weims (they are genetically liver) as well as what we are seeing in GSP diluting liver to grey.
As I have said in an earlier post we are in the data collection mode to first be sure the test on Diane's litter comes back as indicated and then to see the extent of carriers we have. This if pans out as expected in GSP's will be yet another tool in our tool box.
Leita Estes Shortales German Shorthaired Pointers 1 Spotty dog (Dalmatian) Ch. Merry Go Rounds Match Point
From: Berihill
To: "gsp-l@shorthairs.net"
Sent: Sunday, June 5, 2011 9:58 AM
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] color test to order from UC Davis
Thank you Diane for all of your info on this "color" that is potentially in our breed. Correct me if I am wrong, but I am understanding this is really a dilute form of liver not an entirely different color (as I would think of Weim gray?). It seems GSPs can harbor a gene that dilutes the normal liver to a more grayed tone? Is this correct?
I have ordered the test for a couple of my dogs, hopefully others will do the same.
From: "DJSLand@aol.com"
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Sent: Sunday, June 5, 2011 11:19 AM
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] color test to order from UC Davis
My "Gray" Litter Cont.
So the magnificent "7" will be 3 weeks old tomorrow. All pups are doing great, gaining weight, walking (not trotting just yet), barking a bit and starting to play with toys and each other. Just love this age when everything is new to them.
Thought I would try to better explain the color. I have been calling them "gray". Some have coined them as "grey", "silver" or even "blue". Well they are far from being silver or blue which I would call "cool" colors. I would call it a very, very "warm" gray but could be leaning towards a dark taupe. I do think it is similar to the Weim color. Interesting to see the range of "gray" just like we see varation in the lightness or darkness in the liver and white puppies. Remember they are patched and ticked, not solid gray.
Sorry I cant forward photos to the list. I did have a friend post some on facebook about 10 days ago so those of you on facebook can go directly to my wall to see some puppy photos. I also have some photos that I can forward privately to anyone interested in seeing them.
Diane / Panamint GSPs |
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Gspdoo
MH
Posts:326
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| 06/07/2011 1:01 AM |
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Jennifer -- Do you have access to a copy of Georgina Byrnes' Der
Deutsch-Kurzhaar? She discusses this at some length on p. 293.
A GSP's coat color (black vs brown) is determines by the "B" gene locus,
with B determining Black and b resulting in
brown. Since each dog has a pair, BB and Bb would be black and bb is brown
(or liver as we call it in GSPs).
How dark the coat is, is determined by the "D" gene locus
(dilution) with D being dense, and d being
dilute.It was always assumed that GSPs were DD for dense, and when combined with
the B or b locus were either black or liver ( either solid or patched/ticked
because patching and ticking is determined by still another gene locus). "dd"
dilutes either black or liver, resulting in blues or greys. Weimaraners are
dd -- dilute of liver -- ie Weimaraners are bb for brown and dd for
dilute)
A Dd GSP will look dense or dark, and only when two dogs, each
carrying Dd get together can you have dd or dilute puppies.
This is what the testing Leita has arranged for is all about -- looking for
the "little d's in the GSP population.
You are correct that the gene for dilute existed before GSPs and Weims were
developed as breeds. This dilute gene exists in many, many sporting breeds ---
please read Schmutz's article (link below). It is not only in Weims and GSPs but
Cheaspeake Bay Retrievers, Field Spaniels, Poodles, Wirehaired Pointing Griffons
etc. etc. etc. The originators of both GSPs and Weims didn't know all of the
above genetic facts, but the Weim breeders purposely selected for dd and GSP
breeders selected for DD. Because there were no genetic tests, dark pigmented
GSPs could also have been Dd -- which got passed along.
It is the dd of brown in Chocolate labs that results in the "silver"
labs we were discussing on the List over the weekend. Because they are purebred
Labs, they are registered with AKC as chocolate.
Hope this helps.
Sandra Kretz
MARIAH
In a message dated 6/6/2011 2:51:47 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
berihill@sbcglobal.net writes:
Well if all the theories hold true in the
testing...it makes perfect sense how this "dilute" could show up in a litter
of GSPs. GSPs and Weims clearly share a common ancestry in the foundations of
both breeds...these genes apparently are recessives, and it's almost
impossible to remove all unwanted recessives from a population.
Am grateful we have testing for many of these recessives today.
From: Leita Estes
To: "gsp-l@shorthairs.net"
Sent: Monday, June 6, 2011 10:29
AM
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] color
test to order from UC Davis
Jen
It is a separate gene that dilutes color examples; it dilutes black
and tan Dobes to blur dobes, it is the same dilution as in Weims (they are
genetically liver) as well as what we are seeing in GSP diluting liver to
grey.
As I have said in an earlier post we are in the data collection
mode to first be sure the test on Diane's litter comes back as indicated and
then to see the extent of carriers we have. This if pans out as expected in
GSP's will be yet another tool in our tool box.
Leita Estes Shortales German Shorthaired Pointers 1 Spotty dog
(Dalmatian) Ch. Merry Go Rounds Match Point
From: Berihill
To: "gsp-l@shorthairs.net"
Sent: Sunday, June 5, 2011 9:58
AM
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] color
test to order from UC Davis
Thank you Diane for all of your info on this "color" that is potentially
in our breed. Correct me if I am wrong, but I am understanding this is really
a dilute form of liver not an entirely different color (as I would think of
Weim gray?). It seems GSPs can harbor a gene that dilutes the
normal liver to a more grayed tone? Is this correct?
I have ordered the test for a couple of my dogs, hopefully others will do
the same.
From:
"DJSLand@aol.com"
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Sent: Sunday, June 5, 2011 11:19
AM
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] color
test to order from UC Davis
My "Gray" Litter Cont.
So the magnificent "7" will be 3 weeks old tomorrow. All pups are
doing great, gaining weight, walking (not trotting just yet), barking a bit
and starting to play with toys and each other. Just love this age when
everything is new to them.
Thought I would try to better explain the color. I have been
calling them "gray". Some have coined them as "grey", "silver" or even
"blue". Well they are far from being silver or blue which I would
call "cool" colors. I would call it a very, very "warm" gray but could
be leaning towards a dark taupe. I do think it is similar to the Weim
color. Interesting to see the range of "gray" just like we see varation
in the lightness or darkness in the liver and white puppies. Remember
they are patched and ticked, not solid gray.
Sorry I cant forward photos to the list. I did have a friend post
some on facebook about 10 days ago so those of you on facebook can go directly
to my wall to see some puppy photos. I also have some photos that I can
forward privately to anyone interested in seeing them.
Diane / Panamint
GSPs
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berihill
MH
Posts:271
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| 06/07/2011 1:01 AM |
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Yes I do have Georgina's book. Thank you for responding. I was just not certain at first that what we were referring to was just the dilute gene recessive. Got it now . My BCs have lots of recessive colors, dilutions, etc. Sorry I am slow but I missed a lot of the original conversation on this as I was away at dog shows. Came home to an inbox with over 200 postings...I deleted as it was overwhelming at the time. Sorry if I am going over the same things you have already discussed. Thank You!
From: "Gspdoo@aol.com"
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Cc: Mariahgsps@aol.com
Sent: Monday, June 6, 2011 4:31 PM
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] color test to order from UC Davis
Jennifer -- Do you have access to a copy of Georgina Byrnes' Der Deutsch-Kurzhaar? She discusses this at some length on p. 293.
A GSP's coat color (black vs brown) is determines by the "B" gene locus, with B determining Black andb resulting in brown. Since each dog has a pair, BB and Bb would be black and bb is brown (or liver as we call it in GSPs).
How dark the coat is, is determined by the "D" gene locus (dilution) with D being dense, and d being dilute.It was always assumed that GSPs were DD for dense, and when combined with the B or b locus were either black or liver ( either solid or patched/ticked because patching and ticking is determined by still another gene locus). "dd" dilutes either black or liver, resulting in blues or greys. Weimaraners are dd -- dilute of liver -- ie Weimaraners are bb for brown and dd for dilute)
A Dd GSP will look dense or dark, and only when two dogs, each carrying Dd get together can you have dd or dilute puppies.
This is what the testing Leita has arranged for is all about -- looking for the "little d's in the GSP population.
You are correct that the gene for dilute existed before GSPs and Weims were developed as breeds. This dilute gene exists in many, many sporting breeds --- please read Schmutz's article (link below). It is not only in Weims and GSPs but Cheaspeake Bay Retrievers, Field Spaniels, Poodles, Wirehaired Pointing Griffons etc. etc. etc. The originators of both GSPs and Weims didn't know all of the above genetic facts, but the Weim breeders purposely selected for dd and GSP breeders selected for DD. Because there were no genetic tests, dark pigmented GSPs could also have been Dd -- which got passed along.
http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/dogbrown.html
It is the dd of brown in Chocolate labs that results in the "silver" labs we were discussing on the List over the weekend. Because they are purebred Labs, they are registered with AKC as chocolate.
Hope this helps.
Sandra Kretz
MARIAH
In a message dated 6/6/2011 2:51:47 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, berihill@sbcglobal.net writes:
Well if all the theories hold true in the testing...it makes perfect sense how this "dilute" could show up in a litter of GSPs. GSPs and Weims clearly share a common ancestry in the foundations of both breeds...these genes apparently are recessives, and it's almost impossible to remove all unwanted recessives from a population.
Am grateful we have testing for many of these recessives today.
From: Leita Estes
To: "gsp-l@shorthairs.net"
Sent: Monday, June 6, 2011 10:29 AM
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] color test to order from UC Davis
Jen
It is a separate gene that dilutes color examples; it dilutes black and tan Dobes to blur dobes, it is the same dilution as in Weims (they are genetically liver) as well as what we are seeing in GSP diluting liver to grey.
As I have said in an earlier post we are in the data collection mode to first be sure the test on Diane's litter comes back as indicated and then to see the extent of carriers we have. This if pans out as expected in GSP's will be yet another tool in our tool box.
Leita Estes Shortales German Shorthaired Pointers 1 Spotty dog (Dalmatian) Ch. Merry Go Rounds Match Point
From: Berihill
To: "gsp-l@shorthairs.net"
Sent: Sunday, June 5, 2011 9:58 AM
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] color test to order from UC Davis
Thank you Diane for all of your info on this "color" that is potentially in our breed. Correct me if I am wrong, but I am understanding this is really a dilute form of liver not an entirely different color (as I would think of Weim gray?). It seems GSPs can harbor a gene that dilutes the normal liver to a more grayed tone? Is this correct?
I have ordered the test for a couple of my dogs, hopefully others will do the same.
From: "DJSLand@aol.com"
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Sent: Sunday, June 5, 2011 11:19 AM
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] color test to order from UC Davis
My "Gray" Litter Cont.
So the magnificent "7" will be 3 weeks old tomorrow. All pups are doing great, gaining weight, walking (not trotting just yet), barking a bit and starting to play with toys and each other. Just love this age when everything is new to them.
Thought I would try to better explain the color. I have been calling them "gray". Some have coined them as "grey", "silver" or even "blue". Well they are far from being silver or blue which I would call "cool" colors. I would call it a very, very "warm" gray but could be leaning towards a dark taupe. I do think it is similar to the Weim color. Interesting to see the range of "gray" just like we see varation in the lightness or darkness in the liver and white puppies. Remember they are patched and ticked, not solid gray.
Sorry I cant forward photos to the list. I did have a friend post some on facebook about 10 days ago so those of you on facebook can go directly to my wall to see some puppy photos. I also have some photos that I can forward privately to anyone interested in seeing them.
Diane / Panamint GSPs |
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