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shomberg2

MH
Posts:120

07/19/2007 6:35 AM
Hi All, Sorry but I can't necessarily agree that once a judge awards to a solid liver that every other solid liver is out of the picture. And I feel very strongly that if you are of this mindset......then you are already defeated mentally. While there will always be some judges who might feel that they have to "spread it around", and I surely believe they do exisit, I more often feel that a judge who is a person of conviction in their own mind and knows good basic structure, will choose those dogs that they feel are most deserving..... despite the color of the coat. The bottom line is that good structure is good structure and good type is good type. I DO believe that coat color can emphasize both the good and the bad points in structure regardless of whether it is primarily white or solid liver just as those patches can work to either play up or hurt you by simply making a part of your dog's structure appear to be something it isn't. When it comes to the "paint job" there is nothing we can do to control that part of the chassis. Sorry folks. I don't want to begin an "wars" here as I am just stating my own personal beliefs after being in this sport now for 34 + years and having gone through some roller coaster rides on various fronts. For many years now I have spoken about my feelings that while it may sometimes be a preference for a certain color that holds a judge back, it more often has to do with something else about that dog that the judge either likes or dislikes. It's easy to fall back on the "race card" when our dog isn't chosen and color seems to be the obvious reason. But more often than not it isn't color alone. I have actually had judges actually say to me "it isn't that I don't like solid liver. I just never had one like this." And after having done numerous judges seminars and fielding many, many discussions on coat color as one topic of great interest to judges applying for our breed, I can tell you that more often than not, it isn't the color that makes or breaks you in most judges' minds. The basis for my beliefs is the fact that more and more solid livers are winning now than ever before and they will continue to win.........because we are breeding better and better solid liver GSPs than ever before and that is......... a fact. Everyone knows by now that GOOD solid liver shorthair lies close to my heart but that doesn't in any way mean that I cannot love another or that I would prefer it to the exclusion of any other coat pattern. A good shorthair is a good shorthair regardless of the coat color as long as it is within the "standard" of allowable coat colors. It doesn't matter if it is white or solid liver or anywhere in between if the dog has good structure and type. And for sure there will be some folks out there who will disagree because they have been overlooked in a line-up and it is obvious that color was a deciding factor. I am never going to say that it doesn't happen. It does. But......it happens far less than some people might think. And I have always told people to consider the fact that there might be something about the other dog or dogs that the judge just likes a bit better. It may have nothing at all to do with color and you just have to accept that fact and move forward. What I do say to people who come to us for a solid liver show prospect is that you MUST have an above average solid liver in order to compete with an average ticked/patched counterpart. That is just the reality of it in my opinion. And thankfully we seem to have opened quite a few doors in recent years as our solid liver dogs and bitches continue to be quite competitive. And there are many other breeders now who are striving to produce exceptional solid livers and are doing so. Steve and I are very appreciative that so many people have come to us over recent years with the express wish to have a solid liver shorthair. There are numerous breeders among us who have also owned, bred and shown lovely solid liver GSPs and we are thrilled to be in that segment of the fancy that appreciates this particular coat color. We are extremely proud of our own record for producing award winning solid livers and know that those other breeders are just as proud and deservedly so. "Congratulations !! " to those who appreciate the breed for all of its' wonderful qualities in whatever color you choose to own,breed, exhibit and love. In 34 years we've had every single combination of coat color and I can love each and every dog for a lot more than color alone. It sounds corny to say but I still believe that GSPs are the best dogs on the planet )))) Sincerely, Sharon Sharon & Steve Dattilio "Shomberg" , AKC Reg. Breeders of Multiple Best In Show and National Award Winning GSPs www.ShombergGSP.com Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com.

NanROCCo

MH
Posts:389

07/19/2007 8:22 AM
In a message dated 7/19/2007 7:28:47 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, SHOMBERG2@aol.com writes: It sounds corny to say but I still believe that GSPs are the best dogs on the planet )))) Not at all, Sharon. I think most of us do believe that--regardless of color. Could not agree with you more vis a vis what I have seen judges do with regard to coat color. I have had a few white ones in my years, and have heard people's hue and cry about white, but the first pup that ever finished a bench championship in my very first litter was a white factor dog I sold as a pet/hunt pup because he was white factor. What a surprise to me when I arrived late at a regional specialty show to see him being awarded winner's dog...live and learn. I have heard a lot of people disparage facial markings, and I suppose that is a matter of taste, but facial markings alone will never cause a good judge to bypass a sound, typy and athletic moving dog. My opinion. Nancy Campbell, Homesteader GSPS--and a bit of rescue Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com.

CathyYak

MH
Posts:963

07/19/2007 9:05 AM
In a message dated 7/19/2007 8:28:40 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, SHOMBERG2@aol.com writes: <> Well that's the hope that keeps me handing over my hard earned cash on Wednesdays . But I am skipping more shows these days. You can see the judges who walk by your dogs without even looking at them (if I didn't see it, there are ten people waiting for me to come out of the ring to tell me), and I can't imagine they are of such poor quality that they do not warrant even the most cursory consideration for my $30. Maybe it is not the color, and I am not saying my liver dogs should always win by any stretch of the imagination, but I am sure it is not an absolute lack of quality. I would get hung out to dry if I suggested it might have anything to do with the fact that the GSP ring in our area has become a who's who of the PHA, even in puppy classes and sweepstakes , or that we have had more than our fair share of judges who don't understand our breed standard!!!! LOL! Must be my handing skills (wink wink). That is a definite possibility... Cathy Iacopelli Claddagh Kennels German Shorthaired Pointers Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com.

Cathy Iacopelli Claddagh Kennels Long Island, New York

jm5478

JH
Posts:25

07/19/2007 10:08 AM
I am confused you are saying that "What I do say to people who come to us for a solid liver show prospect is that you MUST have an above average solid liver in order to compete with an average ticked/patched counterpart". If coat color does not matter why make this statement, as a new competitor with a solid liver I cannot stress how many times I have heard it from judges and competitors alike, even at the nationals I was verbally and physically accosted because my dog was solid liver!!!! John Marinos ----- Original Message ----- From: SHOMBERG2@aol.com To: gsp-l@web.whc.net Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2007 8:26 AM Subject: [gsp-l] Judges and Solid Liver Hi All, Sorry but I can't necessarily agree that once a judge awards to a solid liver that every other solid liver is out of the picture. And I feel very strongly that if you are of this mindset......then you are already defeated mentally. While there will always be some judges who might feel that they have to "spread it around", and I surely believe they do exisit, I more often feel that a judge who is a person of conviction in their own mind and knows good basic structure, will choose those dogs that they feel are most deserving..... despite the color of the coat. The bottom line is that good structure is good structure and good type is good type. I DO believe that coat color can emphasize both the good and the bad points in structure regardless of whether it is primarily white or solid liver just as those patches can work to either play up or hurt you by simply making a part of your dog's structure appear to be something it isn't. When it comes to the "paint job" there is nothing we can do to control that part of the chassis. Sorry folks. I don't want to begin an "wars" here as I am just stating my own personal beliefs after being in this sport now for 34 + years and having gone through some roller coaster rides on various fronts. For many years now I have spoken about my feelings that while it may sometimes be a preference for a certain color that holds a judge back, it more often has to do with something else about that dog that the judge either likes or dislikes. It's easy to fall back on the "race card" when our dog isn't chosen and color seems to be the obvious reason. But more often than not it isn't color alone. I have actually had judges actually say to me "it isn't that I don't like solid liver. I just never had one like this." And after having done numerous judges seminars and fielding many, many discussions on coat color as one topic of great interest to judges applying for our breed, I can tell you that more often than not, it isn't the color that makes or breaks you in most judges' minds. The basis for my beliefs is the fact that more and more solid livers are winning now than ever before and they will continue to win.........because we are breeding better and better solid liver GSPs than ever before and that is......... a fact. Everyone knows by now that GOOD solid liver shorthair lies close to my heart but that doesn't in any way mean that I cannot love another or that I would prefer it to the exclusion of any other coat pattern. A good shorthair is a good shorthair regardless of the coat color as long as it is within the "standard" of allowable coat colors. It doesn't matter if it is white or solid liver or anywhere in between if the dog has good structure and type. And for sure there will be some folks out there who will disagree because they have been overlooked in a line-up and it is obvious that color was a deciding factor. I am never going to say that it doesn't happen. It does. But......it happens far less than some people might think. And I have always told people to consider the fact that there might be something about the other dog or dogs that the judge just likes a bit better. It may have nothing at all to do with color and you just have to accept that fact and move forward. What I do say to people who come to us for a solid liver show prospect is that you MUST have an above average solid liver in order to compete with an average ticked/patched counterpart. That is just the reality of it in my opinion. And thankfully we seem to have opened quite a few doors in recent years as our solid liver dogs and bitches continue to be quite competitive. And there are many other breeders now who are striving to produce exceptional solid livers and are doing so. Steve and I are very appreciative that so many people have come to us over recent years with the express wish to have a solid liver shorthair. There are numerous breeders among us who have also owned, bred and shown lovely solid liver GSPs and we are thrilled to be in that segment of the fancy that appreciates this particular coat color. We are extremely proud of our own record for producing award winning solid livers and know that those other breeders are just as proud and deservedly so. "Congratulations !! " to those who appreciate the breed for all of its' wonderful qualities in whatever color you choose to own,breed, exhibit and love. In 34 years we've had every single combination of coat color and I can love each and every dog for a lot more than color alone. It sounds corny to say but I still believe that GSPs are the best dogs on the planet )))) Sincerely, Sharon Sharon & Steve Dattilio "Shomberg" , AKC Reg. Breeders of Multiple Best In Show and National Award Winning GSPs www.ShombergGSP.com Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com.

PóG - Claddagh's lady of the knight JH RE CGC TDI Maggie- (Doberman) Maggie phoenix of odyssey CD RE TT CGC TDI

LahrGSP

MH
Posts:703

07/19/2007 10:27 AM
*I think the same thing! I always wonder why someone would get another breed or how can someone who has GSP's switch to another breed?* Juliette Lahr-Toral www.vonlahrheim.com http://community.webshots.com/album/559827400sHcJAJ?vhost=community *CONFIDENTIAL OR PRIVILEGED:* This communication contains information intended only for the use of the individuals to whom it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or exempt from other disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient, you are notified that any disclosure, printing, copying, distribution or use of the contents is prohibited. If you have received this in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone or by returning it by reply email and then permanently deleting the communication from your system. Thank you. Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com.

nuthatch

MH
Posts:82

07/19/2007 11:52 AM
I have found that in Canada we are seeing more and more successful (and very nice) solid livers. Then I started showing True, Can Ch Nuthatch's The Princess Bride. I know some of you have met True, my solid liver bitch with the ticked stockings. Lots of judges that I knew didn't mind solid liver became very hesitant when confronted with her feet. They weren't sure it was permissible. I was pleased to see some of them come out to a judging seminar we did that I purposely brought her to to demonstrate that there is no such thing as a mismark. A number of people had sent me a variety of pictures of unusually marked dogs (both ticked and solid) which we used on overheads. By the end of it, I had to peel her out of one judge's lap where she had become quite comfortable. Only a few weeks earlier he had totally ignored her in the ring. Education is a beautiful thing Heather & the Nuthatch Gang ________________________________________________________________ Sent via the WebMail system at aztec-net.com

shortales

MH
Posts:336

07/19/2007 2:07 PM
I don't know about in the East but say 15 -20 yrs ago the quality of solids on the West coast just weren't that good, so they didn't win much. But now the quality of livers are equal to that of the others shown. I wonder if some judges remember that and just don't look at livers? Back then I felt some people showing poor quality livers used that as an excuse for the dogs not winning. Just like someone showing a poor quality anything that might come up with another excuse. I think the breed should be proud of the quality of livers being shown now and I do think that has helped the breed in the eyes of judges. There will always be some judges that like a certain type over another type but that is what keeps us coming back week after week. Leita *CathyYak@aol.com* wrote: In a message dated 7/19/2007 8:28:40 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, SHOMBERG2@aol.com writes: <> Well that's the hope that keeps me handing over my hard earned cash on Wednesdays . But I am skipping more shows these days. You can see the judges who walk by your dogs without even looking at them (if I didn't see it, there are ten people waiting for me to come out of the ring to tell me), and I can't imagine they are of such poor quality that they do not warrant even the most cursory consideration for my $30. Maybe it is not the color, and I am not saying my liver dogs should always win by any stretch of the imagination, but I am sure it is not an absolute lack of quality. I would get hung out to dry if I suggested it might have anything to do with the fact that the GSP ring in our area has become a who's who of the PHA, even in puppy classes and sweepstakes , or that we have had more than our fair share of judges who don't understand our breed standard!!!! LOL! Must be my handing skills (wink wink). That is a definite possibility... Cathy Iacopelli Claddagh Kennels German Shorthaired Pointers Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com. Leita Estes Shortales German Shorthaired Pointers And 1 Spotty dog (Dalmatian) Ch. Merry Go Rounds Match Point Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car Finder tool.

shortales

MH
Posts:336

07/19/2007 2:34 PM
I'm with Cathy on not attending shows under judges you don't have any respect for. I have my 3 strikes rule. I will give a judge 3 shows with what I think they are looking for (if I have it). BUT if they act like they don't enjoy judging, are heavy handed or rude they don't get my hard earned $ even 1 more time! I do think that judges aren't as consistent as they were "back in the day" maybe too much advertising or too much pimping, or just judges without an eye. You can jump through all the AKC judges approval hoops and go to all the required seminars but if you don't have an eye you just won't be a good judge. Leita *CathyYak@aol.com* wrote: In a message dated 7/19/2007 8:28:40 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, SHOMBERG2@aol.com writes: <> Well that's the hope that keeps me handing over my hard earned cash on Wednesdays . But I am skipping more shows these days. You can see the judges who walk by your dogs without even looking at them (if I didn't see it, there are ten people waiting for me to come out of the ring to tell me), and I can't imagine they are of such poor quality that they do not warrant even the most cursory consideration for my $30. Maybe it is not the color, and I am not saying my liver dogs should always win by any stretch of the imagination, but I am sure it is not an absolute lack of quality. I would get hung out to dry if I suggested it might have anything to do with the fact that the GSP ring in our area has become a who's who of the PHA, even in puppy classes and sweepstakes , or that we have had more than our fair share of judges who don't understand our breed standard!!!! LOL! Must be my handing skills (wink wink). That is a definite possibility... Cathy Iacopelli Claddagh Kennels German Shorthaired Pointers Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com. Leita Estes Shortales German Shorthaired Pointers And 1 Spotty dog (Dalmatian) Ch. Merry Go Rounds Match Point Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us.

chancesaregsp User is Offline

Posts:14

07/20/2007 8:05 PM
Hi Sharon, AMEN!!! All too often, exhibitors of solid livers find it very easy to blame "the race card" for any defeats they suffer, even if to a superior specimen. Your very kind to share your years of experience with other admittedly "new exhibitors". Hopefully, they will develop your perspective as they pay their dues in the breed over the years. Take care Sharon, Terry -----Original Message----- From: SHOMBERG2@aol.com To: gsp-l@web.whc.net Sent: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 8:26 am Subject: [gsp-l] Judges and Solid Liver Hi All, Sorry but I can't necessarily agree that once a judge awards to a solid liver that every other solid liver is out of the picture. And I feel very strongly that if you are of this mindset......then you are already defeated mentally. While there will always be some judges who might feel that they have to "spread it around", and I surely believe they do exisit, I more often feel that a judge who is a person of conviction in their own mind and knows good basic structure, will choose those dogs that they feel are most deserving..... despite the color of the coat. The bottom line is that good structure is good structure and good type is good type. I DO believe that coat color can emphasize both the good and the bad points in structure regardless of whether it is primarily white or solid liver just as those patches can work to either play up or hurt you by simply making a part of your dog's structure appear to be something it isn't. When it comes to the "paint job" there! is nothing we can do to control that part of the chassis. Sorry folks. I don't want to begin an "wars" here as I am just stating my own personal beliefs after being in this sport now for 34 + years and having gone through some roller coaster rides on various fronts. For many years now I have spoken about my feelings that while it may sometimes be a preference for a certain color that holds a judge back, it more often has to do with something else about that dog that the judge either likes or dislikes. It's easy to fall back on the "race card" when our dog isn't chosen and color seems to be the obvious reason. But more often than not it isn't color alone. I have actually had judges actually say to me "it isn't that I don't like solid liver. I just never had one like this." And after having done numerous judges seminars and fielding many, many discussions on coat color as one topic of great interest to judges applying for our breed, I can tell you that more often than not, it isn't the color that makes or breaks you in most judges' minds. The basis for my beliefs is the fact that more and more solid livers are winning now than ever before and they will continue to win.........because we are breeding better and better solid liver GSPs than ever before and that is......... a fact. Everyone knows by now that GOOD solid liver shorthair lies close to my heart but that doesn't in any way mean that I cannot love another or that I would prefer it to the exclusion of any other coat pattern. A good shorthair is a good shorthair regardless of the coat color as long as it is within the "standard" of allowable coat colors. It doesn't matter if it is white or solid liver or anywhere in between if the dog has good structure and type. And for sure there will be some folks out there who will disagree because they have been overlooked in a line-up and it is obvious that color was a deciding factor. I am never going to say that it doesn't happen. It does. But......it happens far less than some people might think. And I have always told people to consider the fact that there might be something about the other dog or dogs that the judge just likes a bit better. It may have nothing at all to do with color and you just have to accept that fact and move forw! ard. What I do say to people who come to us for a solid liver show prospect is that you MUST have an above average solid liver in order to compete with an average ticked/patched counterpart. That is just the reality of it in my opinion. And thankfully we seem to have opened quite a few doors in recent years as our solid liver dogs and bitches continue to be quite competitive. And there are many other breeders now who are striving to produce exceptional solid livers and are doing so. Steve and I are very appreciative that so many people have come to us over recent years with the express wish to have a solid liver shorthair. There are numerous breeders among us who have also owned, bred and shown lovely solid liver GSPs and we are thrilled to be in that segment of the fancy that appreciates this particular coat color. We are extremely proud of our own record for producing award winning solid livers and know that those other breeders are ! just as proud and deservedly so. "Congratulations !! " to those who appreciate the breed for all of its' wonderful qualities in whatever color you choose to own,breed, exhibit and love. In 34 years we've had every single combination of coat color and I can love each and every dog for a lot more than color alone. It sounds corny to say but I still believe that GSPs are the best dogs on the planet )))) Sincerely, Sharon Sharon & Steve Dattilio "Shomberg" , AKC Reg. Breeders of Multiple Best In Show and National Award Winning GSPs www.ShombergGSP.com Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com. AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.

jm5478

JH
Posts:25

07/20/2007 8:36 PM
Group members, This is what I was trying to say in my previous posts, it comes from within the Shorthair group, that is why people and judges see and hear this kind of remarks and feel it is ok to perpetuate this attitude. And yes as a "new exhibitor" to the Shorthair world I am learning and look forward to learn from fine breeders as Sharon who has a wealth of knowledge, I do have a thick skin and let things roll off of my back, but think of the others around the ring, maybe my son, wife or other non exhibitors. I know with Lieta's hard work and Nancy's hard work the GSPCA is moving in the right direction. John Marinos ----- Original Message ----- From: chancesaregsp@aol.com To: gsp-l@web.whc.net Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 9:56 PM Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Judges and Solid Liver Hi Sharon, AMEN!!! All too often, exhibitors of solid livers find it very easy to blame "the race card" for any defeats they suffer, even if to a superior specimen. Your very kind to share your years of experience with other admittedly "new exhibitors". Hopefully, they will develop your perspective as they pay their dues in the breed over the years. Take care Sharon, Terry -----Original Message----- From: SHOMBERG2@aol.com To: gsp-l@web.whc.net Sent: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 8:26 am Subject: [gsp-l] Judges and Solid Liver Hi All, Sorry but I can't necessarily agree that once a judge awards to a solid liver that every other solid liver is out of the picture. And I feel very strongly that if you are of this mindset......then you are already defeated mentally. While there will always be some judges who might feel that they have to "spread it around", and I surely believe they do exisit, I more often feel that a judge who is a person of conviction in their own mind and knows good basic structure, will choose those dogs that they feel are most deserving..... despite the color of the coat. The bottom line is that good structure is good structure and good type is good type. I DO believe that coat color can emphasize both the good and the bad points in structure regardless of whether it is primarily white or solid liver just as those patches can work to either play up or hurt you by simply making a part of your dog's structure appear to be something it isn't. When it comes to the "paint job" there! is nothing we can do to control that part of the chassis. Sorry folks. I don't want to begin an "wars" here as I am just stating my own personal beliefs after being in this sport now for 34 + years and having gone through some roller coaster rides on various fronts. For many years now I have spoken about my feelings that while it may sometimes be a preference for a certain color that holds a judge back, it more often has to do with something else about that dog that the judge either likes or dislikes. It's easy to fall back on the "race card" when our dog isn't chosen and color seems to be the obvious reason. But more often than not it isn't color alone. I have actually had judges actually say to me "it isn't that I don't like solid liver. I just never had one like this." And after having done numerous judges seminars and fielding many, many discussions on coat color as one topic of great interest to judges applying for our breed, I can tell you that more often than not, it isn't the color that makes or breaks you in most judges' minds. The basis for my beliefs is the fact that more and more solid livers are winning now than ever before and they will continue to win.........because we are breeding better and better solid liver GSPs than ever before and that is......... a fact. Everyone knows by now that GOOD solid liver shorthair lies close to my heart but that doesn't in any way mean that I cannot love another or that I would prefer it to the exclusion of any other coat pattern. A good shorthair is a good shorthair regardless of the coat color as long as it is within the "standard" of allowable coat colors. It doesn't matter if it is white or solid liver or anywhere in between if the dog has good structure and type. And for sure there will be some folks out there who will disagree because they have been overlooked in a line-up and it is obvious that color was a deciding factor. I am never going to say that it doesn't happen. It does. But......it happens far less than some people might think. And I have always told people to consider the fact that there might be something about the other dog or dogs that the judge just likes a bit better. It may have nothing at all to do with color and you just have to accept that fact and move forw! ard. What I do say to people who come to us for a solid liver show prospect is that you MUST have an above average solid liver in order to compete with an average ticked/patched counterpart. That is just the reality of it in my opinion. And thankfully we seem to have opened quite a few doors in recent years as our solid liver dogs and bitches continue to be quite competitive. And there are many other breeders now who are striving to produce exceptional solid livers and are doing so. Steve and I are very appreciative that so many people have come to us over recent years with the express wish to have a solid liver shorthair. There are numerous breeders among us who have also owned, bred and shown lovely solid liver GSPs and we are thrilled to be in that segment of the fancy that appreciates this particular coat color. We are extremely proud of our own record for producing award winning solid livers and know that those other breeders are ! just as proud and deservedly so. "Congratulations !! " to those who appreciate the breed for all of its' wonderful qualities in whatever color you choose to own,breed, exhibit and love. In 34 years we've had every single combination of coat color and I can love each and every dog for a lot more than color alone. It sounds corny to say but I still believe that GSPs are the best dogs on the planet )))) Sincerely, Sharon Sharon & Steve Dattilio "Shomberg" , AKC Reg. Breeders of Multiple Best In Show and National Award Winning GSPs www.ShombergGSP.com Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com. AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.

PóG - Claddagh's lady of the knight JH RE CGC TDI Maggie- (Doberman) Maggie phoenix of odyssey CD RE TT CGC TDI

CathyYak

MH
Posts:963

07/20/2007 8:57 PM
In a message dated 7/20/2007 9:58:20 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, chancesaregsp@aol.com writes: AMEN!!! All too often, exhibitors of solid livers find it very easy to blame "the race card" for any defeats they suffer, even if to a superior specimen. Terry, Did you mean for that to go privately? Ouch. Hope you don't mean me! Everyone knows there are no specimens superior to my sweet baby Adhemar ha ha ~. Ask anyone. I'd like to point out that who is inferior and who is superior is subjective. That is why different dogs win on different days. I doubt anyone is deliberately showing a dog they believe to be inferior, except of course for pro handlers who don't always have the luxury of showing only the best of the best and continuing to eat and live indoors. A lot of people think a specimen is superior, while just as many, if not the vast majority will consider that same specimen far inferior. Sometimes a dog is obviously a pet, and just about everyone agrees but that is not too common. I think people who show ticked dogs are just jealous they don't have a handy excuse like a "race card" to pull out when they lose, they have to whine about politics. And we all know that WAY more ticked dogs lose at dog shows than liver ones every week. Ha Ha. Hope one or two of you get my jokes . Cathy Iacopelli Claddagh Kennels German Shorthaired Pointers Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com.

Cathy Iacopelli Claddagh Kennels Long Island, New York

shortales

MH
Posts:336

07/22/2007 9:55 AM
Thanks Liver Lover Cathy! I did get your jokes and I did laugh out loud I am jealous I can't use the "race card". Leita *CathyYak@aol.com* wrote: In a message dated 7/20/2007 9:58:20 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, chancesaregsp@aol.com writes: AMEN!!! All too often, exhibitors of solid livers find it very easy to blame "the race card" for any defeats they suffer, even if to a superior specimen. Terry, Did you mean for that to go privately? Ouch. Hope you don't mean me! Everyone knows there are no specimens superior to my sweet baby Adhemar ha ha ~. Ask anyone. I'd like to point out that who is inferior and who is superior is subjective. That is why different dogs win on different days. I doubt anyone is deliberately showing a dog they believe to be inferior, except of course for pro handlers who don't always have the luxury of showing only the best of the best and continuing to eat and live indoors. A lot of people think a specimen is superior, while just as many, if not the vast majority will consider that same specimen far inferior. Sometimes a dog is obviously a pet, and just about everyone agrees but that is not too common. I think people who show ticked dogs are just jealous they don't have a handy excuse like a "race card" to pull out when they lose, they have to whine about politics. And we all know that WAY more ticked dogs lose at dog shows than liver ones every week. Ha Ha. Hope one or two of you get my jokes . Cathy Iacopelli Claddagh Kennels German Shorthaired Pointers Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com. Leita Estes Shortales German Shorthaired Pointers And 1 Spotty dog (Dalmatian) Ch. Merry Go Rounds Match Point Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.

LahrGSP

MH
Posts:703

07/22/2007 12:25 PM
In a message dated 7/22/2007 8:47:57 AM Pacific Daylight Time, shortales@rocketmail.com writes: Thanks Liver Lover Cathy! I did get your jokes and I did laugh out loud I am jealous I can't use the "race card". Leita *I have heard people say their ticked dog didn't win because of its coloring, like its too dark or too light.* *Once right before going into the ring I was told my dog would win just because of her color.* Juliette Lahr-Toral www.vonlahrheim.com http://community.webshots.com/album/559827400sHcJAJ?vhost=community *CONFIDENTIAL OR PRIVILEGED:* This communication contains information intended only for the use of the individuals to whom it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or exempt from other disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient, you are notified that any disclosure, printing, copying, distribution or use of the contents is prohibited. If you have received this in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone or by returning it by reply email and then permanently deleting the communication from your system. Thank you. Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com.

NanROCCo

MH
Posts:389

07/22/2007 1:11 PM
Okey Dokey, I left on Friday for Atlanta and the AKC Parent Club Conference, and the list was full blown on solid livers. I am in the Atlanta airport on Sunday, headed home (I hope) and I see we are still on this topic. I am a woman who grew up when women could not expect equal jobs or pay, and there were virtually NO women CEO's. In my pre-med classes, there were only 3% women. I never became a doctor. A lot of my lab work was sabotaged, when I did well. I got frightened and took another direction. What does this have to do with the current discussion? At the beginning, those of us who felt rampant discrimination did a lot of demonstrating and were fairly strident (some of us, anyway). Then we put our noses to the grindstone, and fought the good fight in the trenches. We made our point with our successes and hard work, even when the playing field was "occasionally" not level. Because of this, we see a different proportion of women of consequence in the work place and commanding comparable, if not exactly equal pay. The relatively (only relatively) recent burgeoning of quality liver GSPs winning consistently in the show ring is another example of the transition between protest and moving on to improve the lot of the "underdog" by hard work, improved education and the removal of blind faith from the effort. Just keep producing those quality liver GSPs, showing them, and you will keep winning. The ones that are not of sufficient quality, just like the liver, ticked and white dog of insufficient quality will not win. The devil is in the details. Keep working, you're winning. JMO Nancy Campbell, Homesteader GSPs, liver ticked and patched, mostly owner handled, and some win and some lose. In a message dated 7/21/2007 4:04:21 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, shortales@rocketmail.com writes: I don't know about in the East but say 15 -20 yrs ago the quality of solids on the West coast just weren't that good, so they didn't win much. But now the quality of livers are equal to that of the others shown. I wonder if some judges remember that and just don't look at livers? Back then I felt some people showing poor quality livers used that as an excuse for the dogs not winning. Just like someone showing a poor quality anything that might come up with another excuse. I think the breed should be proud of the quality of livers being shown now and I do think that has helped the breed in the eyes of judges. There will always be some judges that like a certain type over another type but that is what keeps us coming back week after week. Leita Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com.

cdharms

Posts:3

07/22/2007 7:20 PM
I wish to be taken off of the mailing list Thank you From: ersonName w:st="on">gsp-l-request@web.whc.netersonName> [mailto:ersonName w:st="on">gsp-l-request@web.whc.netersonName>] On Behalf Of NanROCCo@aol.com Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2007 1:56 PM To: ersonName w:st="on">gsp-l@web.whc.netersonName> Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Judges and Solid Liver Okey Dokey, I left on Friday for Atlanta and the AKC Parent Club Conference, and the list was full blown on solid livers. I am in the Atlanta airport on Sunday, headed home (I hope) and I see we are still on this topic. I am a woman who grew up when women could not expect equal jobs or pay, and there were virtually NO women CEO's. In my pre-med classes, there were only 3% women. I never became a doctor. A lot of my lab work was sabotaged, when I did well. I got frightened and took another direction. What does this have to do with the current discussion? At the beginning, those of us who felt rampant discrimination did a lot of demonstrating and were fairly strident (some of us, anyway). Then we put our noses to the grindstone, and fought the good fight in the trenches. We made our point with our successes and hard work, even when the playing field was "occasionally" not level. Because of this, we see a different proportion of women of consequence in the work place and commanding comparable, if not exactly equal pay. The relatively (only relatively) recent burgeoning of quality liver GSPs winning consistently in the show ring is another example of the transition between protest and moving on to improve the lot of the "underdog" by hard work, improved education and the removal of blind faith from the effort. Just keep producing those quality liver GSPs, showing them, and you will keep winning. The ones that are not of sufficient quality, just like the liver, ticked and white dog of insufficient quality will not win. The devil is in the details. Keep working, you're winning. JMO Nancy Campbell, Homesteader GSPs, liver ticked and patched, mostly owner handled, and some win and some lose. In a message dated 7/21/2007 4:04:21 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, shortales@rocketmail.com writes: I don't know about in the East but say 15 -20 yrs ago the quality of solids on the West coast just weren't that good, so they didn't win much. But now the quality of livers are equal to that of the others shown. I wonder if some judges remember that and just don't look at livers? Back then I felt some people showing poor quality livers used that as an excuse for the dogs not winning. Just like someone showing a poor quality anything that might come up with another excuse. I think the breed should be proud of the quality of livers being shown now and I do think that has helped the breed in the eyes of judges. There will always be some judges that like a certain type over another type but that is what keeps us coming back week after week. Leita Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com.

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