|
| Author |
Messages |
|
RoggenfeldGSPs1
MH
Posts:137
 |
| 08/07/2009 4:11 PM |
|
And while you are at it, why don't you (trialers) just develop your own
breed, instead of making more of a wreck of the ones we already have?
Do what the Germans did. Pick the traits (big run etc.), and develop a
new breed to fit those traits.
Pam Parshall
Roggenfeld Shorthairs
CathyYak@aol.com wrote:
What
"breeders in this country did to them" is EXACTLY what breeders of
working dogs SHOULD do; change the dog to fit the needs of the
sportsman. Seems perfectly logical to me.
Sportsmen didn't change the GSP to hunt better. Traillers
changed it to trial better. That is not at all the same thing.
Flame suit on.
|
|
|
|
|
canebrake1
MH
Posts:121
|
| 08/07/2009 4:57 PM |
|
I had a conversation with Carol Chadwick at this year's NSS. I told her
that what I would love to see for the breed was a DC/MACH MH GSP. I was
serious and she just laughed  How cool would that be....
I have never bred a litter of GSPs but have been an owner of 5. All 5
different temperaments and abilities.
I am supportive of my husband in field trials and hunt tests. He qualified
for National Amateur Gun Dog (Walking) stakes this year and it was
cancelled. Huge disappointment for our family and I know the hard work he
did.
I am saddened by the comments slamming the "field trial bred" GSPs. My
original breed is labs...field trial bred...We have 4 CH GSPs sitting on our
couch right now but I have only been in the show ring once with my lab (to
proof her obedience Our breed just lost the only EVER Champion/MACH lab
(there are THOUSANDS that compete). I have never seen a DC lab although I
heard a rumor that one existed. Think about that as you throw words back
and forth....I would support a trend back to dual purpose lab in a heartbeat
but you wouldn't want to be in a conversation w/ field trial labbers about
this and that IS sad...
Our 1st "field trial" bred GSP went Best Puppy in Show with me...a nobody in
the show world, placed at NSS several times and was breathtaking to watch in
the field. The second won 1st place at field trial one weekend and winners
bitch at regional specialty show the next, placed at NSS several times and
is a wonderful, talented hunting companion.
There are so MANY wonderful GSP breeders on this list with incredible
knowledge. Please urge your puppy owners to get involved in a performance
event - agility, hunt test, obedience, rally, field trial, tracking, etc.
I don't know you Adam but how proud I am as a member of GSPCA to look at
your signature line and see CH/MH GSPs in it (and CGC too) That is really
cool.... Would be way cooler to see DC/MH -it seems you could be one to do
it
I invite any of you who are interested in field trial world to come to our
Middle TN field trial. We would love to have you..
Martha Veatch - still holding out hope for that DC/MACH/MH GSP!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Adam DeLude"
To:
Sent: Friday, August 07, 2009 2:04 PM
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Fw: President's message current magazine
So my question is what good is a dog that might be the perfect example of
the breed but couldnt find a bird if it hit them in the face?
But also bob please explain how a field trial evaluates what the GSP was
originally brought over here for to be a versatile dog.
Adam
Allirun Shorthairs-
Home of the Highest Ranked GSP in breed history with a MH title
Group Winning,Multiple Group Placing,
BISS CH Honey Run's Spittin' Image MH NAII CGC
--- On Fri, 8/7/09, askmegsp@aol.com wrote:
> From: askmegsp@aol.com
> Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Fw: President's message current magazine
> To: gsp-l@web.whc.net
> Date: Friday, August 7, 2009, 1:37 PM
>
>
>
> Still, the evaluation of instinctive traits of
> hunting dogs should be done in field trials, where the
> rubber hits the road, rather than by visual observation in a
> dog show.I don't think anyone is trying to
> evaluate hunting instinct at dog shows, rather evaluate the
> similarity of the exhibits to the breed standard. Proper
> conformation enhances the dogs ability to
> perform the tasks for which he is bred.
>
>
>
> Ann King-Wallace
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: Robert H Johnston
>
> To: gsp-l
>
> Sent: Fri, Aug 7, 2009 2:06 pm
>
> Subject: RE: [gsp-l] Fw: President's message current
> magazine
>
>
>
>
>
>
> #yiv1864243102
> #AOLMsgPart_2_9bfabfdb-6cdc-4bca-9111-048522e49114
> .hmmessage P{margin:0px;padding:0px;}#yiv1864243102
> #AOLMsgPart_2_9bfabfdb-6cdc-4bca-9111-048522e49114
> body.hmmessage{font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;}
> I won't argue with that. I've written many posts
> about the falsification of breeding records and the damage
> they have done to the breed. I do not defend crossbreeding
> and I know it is common in the field trial game. Over
> the years with the introduction of horseback handling and
> especially gaited horses, extended range has been emphasized
> to the point where finding a good hunting dog that will hunt
> for a foot hunter from field trial stock can be a problem.
> I'm hoping that DNA testing and the burgeoning
> popularity of walking field trials will bring the Shorthair
> back to a quality gundog capable of being hunted over
> and handled by a foot hunter. Still, the evaluation of
> instinctive traits of hunting dogs should be done in field
> trials, where the rubber hits the road, rather than by
> visual observation in a dog show. The fact that
> some show dogs are good hunting dogs is due to the
> traits instilled by the creators of the breed which have
> been genetically handed!
> down and the fact that some people work hard to show dogs
> that they know are good trial dogs, the Dual dog people.
> Unfortunately there aren't that many of them. Sincerely,
> Bob Johnston
>
>
>
>
>
> To: gsp-l@web.whc.net
>
> Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Fw: President's message current
> magazine
>
> Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2009 09:26:04 -0400
>
> From: nmk1gsp@aol.com
>
>
>
> While I agree that GSP style, stamina and desire seem to
> get lost in some breeding programs along with natural
> hunting & retrieving ability, I just wonder if Cal and
> Bob would like to guess what the percent of PUREBRED
> GSP's are currently running in AKC Field Trials. I
> am not convinced that the HUGE influx of Pointer DNA in
> field trial pedigrees over the years has helped
> the GSP breed either. A huge percent of my puppy
> buyers either want a dog to hunt with and or compete with at
> least at Hunt Test level. And every puppy buyer wants
> GSP temperament...not what is behind curtain #2. Our rescue
> is swamped with cross breeds that unsuspecting folks
> purchased expecting GSP type & temperament and could not
> live with because they are NOT purebred GSP's. It does
> not matter how great a bird dog it is if you can not live
> with it!!!!!!!
>
> Not breeding for what our forefathers in this breed
> invisioned is a huge mistake for all concerned...and there
> is more than enough blame on both sides of the isle for
> straying from what was intended to be a medium sized,
> powerfully built, medium range gun dog. Here's my
> point...ANY BREEDER not striving to create a GSP
> that is purebred and with solid natural hunting ability
> is NOT doing any of us a favor or our Breed.
>
> Carol Chadwick
>
> 15 Duals and counting
>
> Northwood Mountain Kennels
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: Cal Palmer
>
> To: gsp-l@web.whc.net
>
> Sent: Fri, Aug 7, 2009 3:22 am
>
> Subject: RE: [gsp-l] Fw: President's message current
> magazine
>
>
>
>
>
>
> #yiv1864243102
> #AOLMsgPart_2_9bfabfdb-6cdc-4bca-9111-048522e49114
> .ExternalClass
> #EC_AOLMsgPart_2_710fe8b9-ffff-4a15-9810-4accd0379675
> p.EC_MsoNormal, #yiv1864243102
> #AOLMsgPart_2_9bfabfdb-6cdc-4bca-9111-048522e49114
> .ExternalClass
> #EC_AOLMsgPart_2_710fe8b9-ffff-4a15-9810-4accd0379675
> li.EC_MsoNormal, #yiv1864243102
> #AOLMsgPart_2_9bfabfdb-6cdc-4bca-9111-048522e49114
> .ExternalClass
> #EC_AOLMsgPart_2_710fe8b9-ffff-4a15-9810-4accd0379675
> div.EC_MsoNormal{margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;font-family:'Times
> New Roman';}#yiv1864243102
> #AOLMsgPart_2_9bfabfdb-6cdc-4bca-9111-048522e49114
> .ExternalClass
> #EC_AOLMsgPart_2_710fe8b9-ffff-4a15-9810-4accd0379675
> a:link, #yiv1864243102
> #AOLMsgPart_2_9bfabfdb-6cdc-4bca-9111-048522e49114
> .ExternalClass
> #EC_AOLMsgPart_2_710fe8b9-ffff-4a15-9810-4accd0379675
> span.EC_MsoHyperlink{color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv1864243102
> #AOLMsgPart_2_9bfabfdb-6cdc-4bca-9111-048522e49114
> .ExternalClass
> #EC_AOLMsgPart_2_710fe8b9-ffff-4a15-9810-4accd0379675
> a:visited, #yiv1864243102
> #AOLMsgPart_2_9bfabfdb-6cdc-4bca-9111-048522e49114
> .ExternalC!
> lass #EC_AOLMsgPart_2_710fe8b9-ffff-4a15-9810-4accd0379675
> span.EC_MsoHyperlinkFollowed{color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv1864243102
> #AOLMsgPart_2_9bfabfdb-6cdc-4bca-9111-048522e49114
> .ExternalClass
> #EC_AOLMsgPart_2_710fe8b9-ffff-4a15-9810-4accd0379675
> p{margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12.0pt;font-family:'Times
> New Roman';}#yiv1864243102
> #AOLMsgPart_2_9bfabfdb-6cdc-4bca-9111-048522e49114
> .ExternalClass
> #EC_AOLMsgPart_2_710fe8b9-ffff-4a15-9810-4accd0379675
> span.EC_EmailStyle18{font-family:Verdana;color:blue;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;text-decoration:none
> none;}#yiv1864243102
> #AOLMsgPart_2_9bfabfdb-6cdc-4bca-9111-048522e49114
> .ExternalClass
> #EC_AOLMsgPart_2_710fe8b9-ffff-4a15-9810-4accd0379675
> div.EC_Section1{}
>
>
>
>
> Well
> pointed, Bob. The preceding posts point out an
> unfortunate fact these days that so many breeders of GSPs
> are not hunters themselves, and instead rely on anecdotal
> feedback from their buyers (many of whom also are probably
> not hunters either) for evidence that their pups are the
> best hunting dogs they have ever owned.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: gsp-l-request@web.whc.net
> [mailto:gsp-l-request@web.whc.net]
> On Behalf Of
> Robert H Johnston
>
> Sent:
> Thursday, August 06, 2009 4:38 PM
>
> To: gsp-l
>
> Subject: RE:
> [gsp-l] Fw: President's message current
> magazine
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Can
> you believe it! The President of the GSP of America actually
> wants the Board of Directors to promulgate the breeding of
> GSPs which exemplify the traits
> supposedly inherent in the breed, to wit: seeking,
> finding, pointing and retrieving game birds with style and
> intensity on land and in water. The NERVE of the guy. What
> about Frisbee chasing, hurdling, retrieving balls, excelling
> in couch potatoing, competing in agility tests and chasing
> Geckos and Flies? Lets not forget Shows where the dogs
> demonstrate their athleticism and physical conditioning by
> following at a slow trot those paragons of physical prowess,
> the show handlers.
>
> Even worse, the Prez (Dolt that he is) wants
> hunting desire and traits demonstrated in Field Trials just
> like the developers of the breed did when they brought the
> breed into existence. Never mind that Field trials are used
> by industry, science, the medical field and every agency
> that wants to demonstrate that their product
> will meet certain specifications. We know better don't
> we? We can tell just by looking at a dog on a leash whether
> it wants to hunt and can perform to a standard. What
> about test flights, time trials, vaccine development,
> science experiments, why bother, we can tell how they would
> turn out without physical demonstration just by thinking
> about it. Get real, shows are worthless for demonstrating
> that dogs possess the characteristics needed to be a good
> hunting dog, even if they are a lot of fun. The
> foregoing is not to say that Field trials as presently
> constituted could not be improved.
>
> Finally, there are areas of agreement, most of
> the guys I know in field trialing are definitely not in
> favor of straight fronts. Bob Johnston, Tacoma WA
>
>
>
> > From: chpaisley@sbcglobal.net
>
> > To: gsp-l@web.whc.net
>
> > Subject: [gsp-l] Fw: President's message current
> magazine
>
> > Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2009 14:46:20 -0400
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Subject: Re: President's message current magazine
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >I agree with you 110%! After years of being a
> member of the GSPC of Ohio as
>
> > >well as President, Secretary, and Board member and
> specialty show chair for
>
> > >10+ years, I resigned from its' membership
> along with many other people.
>
> > >After trying to educate the field trialers on
> health clearances, ethics,
>
> > >and proper breeding practices, I was met with
> "you are just against field
>
> > >dogs" and could not in good conscience,
> remain involved and help make money
>
> > >for people who have no desire to see our breed go
> in a positive direction
>
> > >as far as health issues and breeding practices are
> concerned!
>
> > >
>
> > > Barb
>
> > > http://sonnenscheinshorthairs.tripod.com/
>
> > > Sonnenschein Shorthairs
>
> > > "relive the past, experience the present,
> shape the future"
>
> > > ----- Original Message -----
>
> > > From: "Paul & Andrea Owens"
>
> > >> Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 1:09 PM
>
> > > Subject: Re: President's message current
> magazine
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >> Well, this has been an "issue" for
> more than the President's 15 years,
>
> > >> and more than my 35+ years in the breed. I
> think the "argument" will
>
> > >> only resolve itself when field trials become
> obsolete, which is
>
> > >> inevitable I too have had many people tell
> me that dogs they got
>
> > >> from me were the best hunting dogs and
> companions they had ever owned
>
> > >> (most were not first time GSP owners). I have
> never represented my dogs
>
> > >> to be best suited for field trials, though I
> have bred one Dual. I have
>
> > >> always been more concerned with soundness,
> temperament and type than on
>
> > >> range in the field. My own observations over
> the years have led me to
>
> > >> believe that many, but not all, field
> trialers were less concerned with
>
> > >> correct conformation than the "show
> breeders", because their argument
>
> > >> that form follows function leads them to
> believe that a dog's ability to
>
> > >> run for an hour in the desert, with a scout
> on horseback or a tracking
>
> > >> collar necessary to locate them, indicates
> soundness and desire. Some
>
> > >> of the photos I've seen of field dogs
> were arguably some of the
>
> > >> straightest, most undersized, undernourished
> and questionably purebred
>
> > >> dogs I've ever seen, with bad bites and
> very short lived. I have always
>
> > >> had trouble understanding the usefulness of
> dogs needing to cover so
>
> > >> much ground for the modern hunter and was
> always dismayed that the Gun
>
> > >> Dogs seemed to be just All Age dogs that
> didn't make it. I also hate
>
> > >> meeting people who comment that they once
> owned one, but the breed was
>
> > >> too hyper for them to live with. The
> wonderful thing about our breed
>
> > >> though is its versatility. We may not all
> want to play the same game,
>
> > >> but the breed is capable of satisfying all of
> our interests and the dogs
>
> > >> can bring us together with a wonderful
> variety of people. I have
>
> > >> dedicated myself to perpetuating a breed that
> is loved and cherished and
>
> > >> appreciated by the people who own them. Many
> of the showdogs are
>
> > >> lacking in fronts, some are not in good hard
> condition, and many have no
>
> > >> hunting skills because they've never even
> been exposed to birds (but
>
> > >> will hunt anything including lizards and
> flies). Many of their owners
>
> > >> are severely restricted by their limited
> access to suitable grounds
>
> > >> and/or equipment to work their dogs. But,
> overall, I think the show
>
> > >> people I am acquainted with make more of an
> effort to breed healthy,
>
> > >> sound, calm dogs that are easy and enjoyable
> to live with, and versatile
>
> > >> enough to satisfy a larger proportion of the
> population than the more
>
> > >> "specialized" field dogs. Breeding
> is an art and takes true dedication
>
> > >> of time, money and spirit, and the
> willingness to accept continued
>
> > >> responsibility for the dogs we breed. While I
> don't concern myself with
>
> > >> people who are breeding for a different
> outcome, I do note that many of
>
> > >> the most influential dogs in the history of
> the breed, including the
>
> > >> field, more closely resembled the current
> dogs in the show ring than
>
> > >> those in the field. There are some dedicated
> breeders out there (like
>
> > >> the Chandlers) who are dedicated to producing
> excellent examples of dual
>
> > >> champions. Unfortunately, many of us cannot
> afford the time or cost to
>
> > >> participate in all areas of performance so we
> concentrate on the
>
> > >> particular activities that we are most likely
> to excel at. This does
>
> > >> not mean the dogs are any less true to type
> or ability. Our success in
>
> > >> our endeavors and the feedback from our
> buyers and our peers are the
>
> > >> only measurement we have of our efforts.
>
> > >>
>
> > >> Judges education, breeder education and
> ethics, and maintaining the
>
> > >> right to keep our animals, as well as making
> performance events
>
> > >> available to measure our outcomes, are the
> direction that the Board
>
> > >> needs to concern itself with most. Otherwise,
> the cream will rise to
>
> > >> the top and those who do not find it
> rewarding in our breed will switch
>
> > >> to another.
>
> > >>
>
> > >> Amen
>
> > >>
>
> > >> Andi Owens
>
> > >> Unwillyn GSPs
>
> > >>
>
> > >> On Aug 3, 2009, at 9:03 AM, bleugrasgsp@aol.com
> wrote:
>
> > >>
>
> > >>> Letter to the Editor:
>
> > >>> I find it distressing to read the
> President's comment in the Journal
>
> > >>> July/August 2009, that he feels the
> showdogs are "...oversized with
>
> > >>> straight fronts, lacking condition and
> most were having problems with
>
> > >>> hunting and scenting skills"!! and
> "In my fifteen years we have done
>
> > >>> nothing to solve this problem"!!
>
> > >>>
>
> > >>> I beg to differ with that assumption of
> the Pres. and am willing to
>
> > >>> supply much proof that the "show
> dogs" are wonderful hunters and their
>
> > >>> "scenting skills" are not
> lost!! This morning, in fact, I received an
>
> > >>> e-mail stating , "she is the most
> intense hunter", about a "showdog"
>
> > >>> bought from me several years ago...and I
> have many many more e-mails
>
> > >>> and letters declaring the same!
>
> > >>>
>
> > >>> President Blackbourn states, "..it
> is still my firm belief that the
>
> > >>> direction of the Breed both in
> conformation and athletic performance
>
> > >>> should be directed by the Board." I
> am not sure of what that means nor
>
> > >>> infers, but I would suspect that many
> longtime breeders feel that the
>
> > >>> "direction" of the breed lay in
> THEIR hands, not in the hands of the
>
> > >>> "Board".
>
> > >>>
>
> > >>> Perhaps further clarification and
> explanation of these statements could
>
> > >>> be elaborated upon.
>
> > >>>
>
> > >>> Eve Parsons
>
> > >>> Bleugras
>
> > >>>
>
> > >>>
>
> > >>> **************
>
> > >>> A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See
> yours in just 2 easy steps!
>
> > >>> (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222846709x1201493018/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx
>
>
> > >>>
> ?sc=668072&hmpgID=115&bcd=JulystepsfooterNO115)
>
> > >>
>
> > >>
> **********************************************************************
>
> > >>
>
> > >> >
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Get free photo
> software from Windows Live Click
> here.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Get free photo software from Windows Live Click
> here. =
>
>
|
|
|
|
|
Dave Quindt
SH
Posts:41
|
| 08/07/2009 5:06 PM |
|
|
CJ Galbraith wrote:
“ I would like to know how many of the field trial folks, who have the big running dogs and own their own horses, actually hunt over their dogs on horseback? Or is this just a ‘package’ that is bred and trained to compete in field trials and has no other real purpose? “
Why are you so focused on the manner that the handler uses to get around? In both recreational hunting and horseback field trials, the dogs hunt likely cover, uses their noses to find birds and their pointing instincts to point birds, and have to maintain contact with the handler. Whether the handler is walking or riding has no impact on the dog, other than the pace of the handler and the ability for the handler and dog to maintain contact with each other. To the dog, it's ALL hunting.
Contrary to popular belief (especially among those with little or no hunting experience) you don’t use a horse to “keep up” to the dog; you use a horse to push the dog further than he would when handled on foot.
I horseback FT my dogs, along with walking trials, and in the past NAVHDA & hunt tests. I don’t have “Field Trial dogs”, I have dogs that I trial and hunt and are personal pets. 90% of the people I know who trial have the same thing. I know only a handful of “trialers”, but I know hundreds of “hunters who trial in the offseason”.
My young dog right now is on the prairies of North Dakota on a training trip, being run off of horseback on wild birds. He’s going to run a number of horseback trials this late summer & early fall. Then he’s going to come home and will be hunted this fall. 75% of my hunting is in the grouse woods of Wisconsin. There’s no horseback or truck or ATV hunting for me; most of the places I hunt you can’t see more than 40 yards and the best places are so thick you can barely see the sky. The places I hunt would make most of you cry for your momma J And yet, I want dogs that can compete in horseback trials, because I believe those traits result in a better wild bird dog.
I’ve played virtually all of the games; started in NAVHDA and went to hunt tests and then walking trials and now a mix of walking and horseback. I’ve seen the best that every venue produces, and the worse. In my experience, field trials (particularly horseback ones) give me the best venue to evaluate breeding stock for the specific traits I want in a great hunting dog. Hunt test or NSTRA or NAVHDA may look more visually similar to foot hunting, but those venues don’t produce better wild bird foot dogs because of it. When someone develops a “better mousetrap” I’ll focus my attention on that.
Does it mean that I feel that FTs are perfect, or that the winner is by default the best wild bird hunting dog? Nope; not by a long shot. I’ve written a ton here and elsewhere about my critiques of field trials and trialers, to much protest from fellow trialers. “Field trials”, whether they are to find the best dogs, or cars, or strains of sweet corn, or cancer drugs or fighter jets, are tools of the extreme. The goal is to push the subject being “field trialed” harder and to the extreme, past the point that the average user will ever get to. The goal is to “let the cream rise to the top” over and over. Horseback trials don't have to be, and shouldn't ever be, the only field testing venue we have. But they are critically important because they ask more of the dog than any other testing or trialing venue.
So this constant game that many of the show folks want to play of pitting the hunter against the field trialer ain’t going to fly with me, because I’m both a hunter AND a trialer, as are most of the other folks I compete with/against.
JMO,
Dave
Get back to school stuff for them and cashback for you. Try Bing now.
|
|
|
|
|
CathyYak
MH
Posts:963
|
| 08/07/2009 5:26 PM |
|
In a message dated 8/7/2009 5:56:03 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
dlquindt@hotmail.com writes:
Apparently it's OK
that the Pointer has evolved but not ok that the GSP has
evolved?
Ok, evolving and being crossbred are not the same thing. Please
do not try to slide that one by us by using a pretty word like evolve to explain
why many (I won't use the President's choice of "most") supposed GSPs and now
cross bred mongrels with docked tails.
|
|
Cathy Iacopelli
Claddagh Kennels
Long Island, New York |
|
|
david.nauer
MH
Posts:125
|
| 08/07/2009 5:35 PM |
|
| Martha -- there may be one that is close. There is a DC/MH/UDX/MX/MXJ
GSP out there with 13 QQ and 525 Championship Points (for those that
don't know AKC agility, a MACH, or "Master Agility Champion", requires
20 double qualifications (or "QQ") and 750 Championship Points, often
referred to as "MACH Points"). I do not know if he is continuing to
trial, but he was close if he isn't! The dog also has 6 of the 10
needed legs to get the UDX2 title. This dog has the GSPCA VC, VCA, and
VCX certifications.
DC Cheza's Michael Magic Birdog UDX MH MX MXJ owned by Jeffrey and Linda
Drogin and bred by Jane Rae -- they were awarded the VCX this year --
that is a lot of hard work in many different venues.
There are others out there with incredible mixes of achievement (the
great Trekker for example) across the conformation, performance, and
companion event venues, but this is the closest GSP DC to a MACH that
I'm aware of.
Dave
David Nauer
VoyagerGPSs
-----Original Message-----
From: gsp-l-request@web.whc.net [mailto:gsp-l-request@web.whc.net] On
Behalf Of canebrake
Sent: Friday, August 07, 2009 4:44 PM
To: gsp-l@web.whc.net
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Fw: President's message current magazine
I had a conversation with Carol Chadwick at this year's NSS. I told her
that what I would love to see for the breed was a DC/MACH MH GSP. I was
serious and she just laughed How cool would that be....
I have never bred a litter of GSPs but have been an owner of 5. All 5
different temperaments and abilities.
I am supportive of my husband in field trials and hunt tests. He
qualified
for National Amateur Gun Dog (Walking) stakes this year and it was
cancelled. Huge disappointment for our family and I know the hard work
he
did.
I am saddened by the comments slamming the "field trial bred" GSPs. My
original breed is labs...field trial bred...We have 4 CH GSPs sitting on
our
couch right now but I have only been in the show ring once with my lab
(to
proof her obedience Our breed just lost the only EVER Champion/MACH
lab
(there are THOUSANDS that compete). I have never seen a DC lab although
I
heard a rumor that one existed. Think about that as you throw words
back
and forth....I would support a trend back to dual purpose lab in a
heartbeat
but you wouldn't want to be in a conversation w/ field trial labbers
about
this and that IS sad...
Our 1st "field trial" bred GSP went Best Puppy in Show with me...a
nobody in
the show world, placed at NSS several times and was breathtaking to
watch in
the field. The second won 1st place at field trial one weekend and
winners
bitch at regional specialty show the next, placed at NSS several times
and
is a wonderful, talented hunting companion.
There are so MANY wonderful GSP breeders on this list with incredible
knowledge. Please urge your puppy owners to get involved in a
performance
event - agility, hunt test, obedience, rally, field trial, tracking,
etc.
I don't know you Adam but how proud I am as a member of GSPCA to look at
your signature line and see CH/MH GSPs in it (and CGC too) That is
really
cool.... Would be way cooler to see DC/MH -it seems you could be one to
do
it
I invite any of you who are interested in field trial world to come to
our
Middle TN field trial. We would love to have you..
Martha Veatch - still holding out hope for that DC/MACH/MH GSP!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Adam DeLude"
To:
Sent: Friday, August 07, 2009 2:04 PM
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Fw: President's message current magazine
So my question is what good is a dog that might be the perfect example
of
the breed but couldnt find a bird if it hit them in the face?
But also bob please explain how a field trial evaluates what the GSP was
originally brought over here for to be a versatile dog.
Adam
Allirun Shorthairs-
Home of the Highest Ranked GSP in breed history with a MH title
Group Winning,Multiple Group Placing,
BISS CH Honey Run's Spittin' Image MH NAII CGC
--- On Fri, 8/7/09, askmegsp@aol.com wrote:
> From: askmegsp@aol.com
> Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Fw: President's message current magazine
> To: gsp-l@web.whc.net
> Date: Friday, August 7, 2009, 1:37 PM
>
>
>
> Still, the evaluation of instinctive traits of
> hunting dogs should be done in field trials, where the
> rubber hits the road, rather than by visual observation in a
> dog show.I don't think anyone is trying to
> evaluate hunting instinct at dog shows, rather evaluate the
> similarity of the exhibits to the breed standard. Proper
> conformation enhances the dogs ability to
> perform the tasks for which he is bred.
>
>
>
> Ann King-Wallace
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: Robert H Johnston
>
> To: gsp-l
>
> Sent: Fri, Aug 7, 2009 2:06 pm
>
> Subject: RE: [gsp-l] Fw: President's message current
> magazine
>
>
>
>
>
>
> #yiv1864243102
> #AOLMsgPart_2_9bfabfdb-6cdc-4bca-9111-048522e49114
> .hmmessage P{margin:0px;padding:0px;}#yiv1864243102
> #AOLMsgPart_2_9bfabfdb-6cdc-4bca-9111-048522e49114
> body.hmmessage{font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;}
> I won't argue with that. I've written many posts
> about the falsification of breeding records and the damage
> they have done to the breed. I do not defend crossbreeding
> and I know it is common in the field trial game. Over
> the years with the introduction of horseback handling and
> especially gaited horses, extended range has been emphasized
> to the point where finding a good hunting dog that will hunt
> for a foot hunter from field trial stock can be a problem.
> I'm hoping that DNA testing and the burgeoning
> popularity of walking field trials will bring the Shorthair
> back to a quality gundog capable of being hunted over
> and handled by a foot hunter. Still, the evaluation of
> instinctive traits of hunting dogs should be done in field
> trials, where the rubber hits the road, rather than by
> visual observation in a dog show. The fact that
> some show dogs are good hunting dogs is due to the
> traits instilled by the creators of the breed which have
> been genetically handed!
> down and the fact that some people work hard to show dogs
> that they know are good trial dogs, the Dual dog people.
> Unfortunately there aren't that many of them. Sincerely,
> Bob Johnston
>
>
>
>
>
> To: gsp-l@web.whc.net
>
> Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Fw: President's message current
> magazine
>
> Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2009 09:26:04 -0400
>
> From: nmk1gsp@aol.com
>
>
>
> While I agree that GSP style, stamina and desire seem to
> get lost in some breeding programs along with natural
> hunting & retrieving ability, I just wonder if Cal and
> Bob would like to guess what the percent of PUREBRED
> GSP's are currently running in AKC Field Trials. I
> am not convinced that the HUGE influx of Pointer DNA in
> field trial pedigrees over the years has helped
> the GSP breed either. A huge percent of my puppy
> buyers either want a dog to hunt with and or compete with at
> least at Hunt Test level. And every puppy buyer wants
> GSP temperament...not what is behind curtain #2. Our rescue
> is swamped with cross breeds that unsuspecting folks
> purchased expecting GSP type & temperament and could not
> live with because they are NOT purebred GSP's. It does
> not matter how great a bird dog it is if you can not live
> with it!!!!!!!
>
> Not breeding for what our forefathers in this breed
> invisioned is a huge mistake for all concerned...and there
> is more than enough blame on both sides of the isle for
> straying from what was intended to be a medium sized,
> powerfully built, medium range gun dog. Here's my
> point...ANY BREEDER not striving to create a GSP
> that is purebred and with solid natural hunting ability
> is NOT doing any of us a favor or our Breed.
>
> Carol Chadwick
>
> 15 Duals and counting
>
> Northwood Mountain Kennels
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: Cal Palmer
>
> To: gsp-l@web.whc.net
>
> Sent: Fri, Aug 7, 2009 3:22 am
>
> Subject: RE: [gsp-l] Fw: President's message current
> magazine
>
>
>
>
>
>
> #yiv1864243102
> #AOLMsgPart_2_9bfabfdb-6cdc-4bca-9111-048522e49114
> .ExternalClass
> #EC_AOLMsgPart_2_710fe8b9-ffff-4a15-9810-4accd0379675
> p.EC_MsoNormal, #yiv1864243102
> #AOLMsgPart_2_9bfabfdb-6cdc-4bca-9111-048522e49114
> .ExternalClass
> #EC_AOLMsgPart_2_710fe8b9-ffff-4a15-9810-4accd0379675
> li.EC_MsoNormal, #yiv1864243102
> #AOLMsgPart_2_9bfabfdb-6cdc-4bca-9111-048522e49114
> .ExternalClass
> #EC_AOLMsgPart_2_710fe8b9-ffff-4a15-9810-4accd0379675
>
div.EC_MsoNormal{margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;font-family:'Tim
es
> New Roman';}#yiv1864243102
> #AOLMsgPart_2_9bfabfdb-6cdc-4bca-9111-048522e49114
> .ExternalClass
> #EC_AOLMsgPart_2_710fe8b9-ffff-4a15-9810-4accd0379675
> a:link, #yiv1864243102
> #AOLMsgPart_2_9bfabfdb-6cdc-4bca-9111-048522e49114
> .ExternalClass
> #EC_AOLMsgPart_2_710fe8b9-ffff-4a15-9810-4accd0379675
>
span.EC_MsoHyperlink{color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv186424310
2
> #AOLMsgPart_2_9bfabfdb-6cdc-4bca-9111-048522e49114
> .ExternalClass
> #EC_AOLMsgPart_2_710fe8b9-ffff-4a15-9810-4accd0379675
> a:visited, #yiv1864243102
> #AOLMsgPart_2_9bfabfdb-6cdc-4bca-9111-048522e49114
> .ExternalC!
> lass #EC_AOLMsgPart_2_710fe8b9-ffff-4a15-9810-4accd0379675
>
span.EC_MsoHyperlinkFollowed{color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv1
864243102
> #AOLMsgPart_2_9bfabfdb-6cdc-4bca-9111-048522e49114
> .ExternalClass
> #EC_AOLMsgPart_2_710fe8b9-ffff-4a15-9810-4accd0379675
> p{margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12.0pt;font-family:'Times
> New Roman';}#yiv1864243102
> #AOLMsgPart_2_9bfabfdb-6cdc-4bca-9111-048522e49114
> .ExternalClass
> #EC_AOLMsgPart_2_710fe8b9-ffff-4a15-9810-4accd0379675
>
span.EC_EmailStyle18{font-family:Verdana;color:blue;font-weight:normal;f
ont-style:normal;text-decoration:none
> none;}#yiv1864243102
> #AOLMsgPart_2_9bfabfdb-6cdc-4bca-9111-048522e49114
> .ExternalClass
> #EC_AOLMsgPart_2_710fe8b9-ffff-4a15-9810-4accd0379675
> div.EC_Section1{}
>
>
>
>
> Well
> pointed, Bob. The preceding posts point out an
> unfortunate fact these days that so many breeders of GSPs
> are not hunters themselves, and instead rely on anecdotal
> feedback from their buyers (many of whom also are probably
> not hunters either) for evidence that their pups are the
> best hunting dogs they have ever owned.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: gsp-l-request@web.whc.net
> [mailto:gsp-l-request@web.whc.net]
> On Behalf Of
> Robert H Johnston
>
> Sent:
> Thursday, August 06, 2009 4:38 PM
>
> To: gsp-l
>
> Subject: RE:
> [gsp-l] Fw: President's message current
> magazine
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Can
> you believe it! The President of the GSP of America actually
> wants the Board of Directors to promulgate the breeding of
> GSPs which exemplify the traits
> supposedly inherent in the breed, to wit: seeking,
> finding, pointing and retrieving game birds with style and
> intensity on land and in water. The NERVE of the guy. What
> about Frisbee chasing, hurdling, retrieving balls, excelling
> in couch potatoing, competing in agility tests and chasing
> Geckos and Flies? Lets not forget Shows where the dogs
> demonstrate their athleticism and physical conditioning by
> following at a slow trot those paragons of physical prowess,
> the show handlers.
>
> Even worse, the Prez (Dolt that he is) wants
> hunting desire and traits demonstrated in Field Trials just
> like the developers of the breed did when they brought the
> breed into existence. Never mind that Field trials are used
> by industry, science, the medical field and every agency
> that wants to demonstrate that their product
> will meet certain specifications. We know better don't
> we? We can tell just by looking at a dog on a leash whether
> it wants to hunt and can perform to a standard. What
> about test flights, time trials, vaccine development,
> science experiments, why bother, we can tell how they would
> turn out without physical demonstration just by thinking
> about it. Get real, shows are worthless for demonstrating
> that dogs possess the characteristics needed to be a good
> hunting dog, even if they are a lot of fun. The
> foregoing is not to say that Field trials as presently
> constituted could not be improved.
>
> Finally, there are areas of agreement, most of
> the guys I know in field trialing are definitely not in
> favor of straight fronts. Bob Johnston, Tacoma WA
>
>
>
> > From: chpaisley@sbcglobal.net
>
> > To: gsp-l@web.whc.net
>
> > Subject: [gsp-l] Fw: President's message current
> magazine
>
> > Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2009 14:46:20 -0400
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Subject: Re: President's message current magazine
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >I agree with you 110%! After years of being a
> member of the GSPC of Ohio as
>
> > >well as President, Secretary, and Board member and
> specialty show chair for
>
> > >10+ years, I resigned from its' membership
> along with many other people.
>
> > >After trying to educate the field trialers on
> health clearances, ethics,
>
> > >and proper breeding practices, I was met with
> "you are just against field
>
> > >dogs" and could not in good conscience,
> remain involved and help make money
>
> > >for people who have no desire to see our breed go
> in a positive direction
>
> > >as far as health issues and breeding practices are
> concerned!
>
> > >
>
> > > Barb
>
> > > http://sonnenscheinshorthairs.tripod.com/
>
> > > Sonnenschein Shorthairs
>
> > > "relive the past, experience the present,
> shape the future"
>
> > > ----- Original Message -----
>
> > > From: "Paul & Andrea Owens"
>
> > >> Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 1:09 PM
>
> > > Subject: Re: President's message current
> magazine
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >> Well, this has been an "issue" for
> more than the President's 15 years,
>
> > >> and more than my 35+ years in the breed. I
> think the "argument" will
>
> > >> only resolve itself when field trials become
> obsolete, which is
>
> > >> inevitable I too have had many people tell
> me that dogs they got
>
> > >> from me were the best hunting dogs and
> companions they had ever owned
>
> > >> (most were not first time GSP owners). I have
> never represented my dogs
>
> > >> to be best suited for field trials, though I
> have bred one Dual. I have
>
> > >> always been more concerned with soundness,
> temperament and type than on
>
> > >> range in the field. My own observations over
> the years have led me to
>
> > >> believe that many, but not all, field
> trialers were less concerned with
>
> > >> correct conformation than the "show
> breeders", because their argument
>
> > >> that form follows function leads them to
> believe that a dog's ability to
>
> > >> run for an hour in the desert, with a scout
> on horseback or a tracking
>
> > >> collar necessary to locate them, indicates
> soundness and desire. Some
>
> > >> of the photos I've seen of field dogs
> were arguably some of the
>
> > >> straightest, most undersized, undernourished
> and questionably purebred
>
> > >> dogs I've ever seen, with bad bites and
> very short lived. I have always
>
> > >> had trouble understanding the usefulness of
> dogs needing to cover so
>
> > >> much ground for the modern hunter and was
> always dismayed that the Gun
>
> > >> Dogs seemed to be just All Age dogs that
> didn't make it. I also hate
>
> > >> meeting people who comment that they once
> owned one, but the breed was
>
> > >> too hyper for them to live with. The
> wonderful thing about our breed
>
> > >> though is its versatility. We may not all
> want to play the same game,
>
> > >> but the breed is capable of satisfying all of
> our interests and the dogs
>
> > >> can bring us together with a wonderful
> variety of people. I have
>
> > >> dedicated myself to perpetuating a breed that
> is loved and cherished and
>
> > >> appreciated by the people who own them. Many
> of the showdogs are
>
> > >> lacking in fronts, some are not in good hard
> condition, and many have no
>
> > >> hunting skills because they've never even
> been exposed to birds (but
>
> > >> will hunt anything including lizards and
> flies). Many of their owners
>
> > >> are severely restricted by their limited
> access to suitable grounds
>
> > >> and/or equipment to work their dogs. But,
> overall, I think the show
>
> > >> people I am acquainted with make more of an
> effort to breed healthy,
>
> > >> sound, calm dogs that are easy and enjoyable
> to live with, and versatile
>
> > >> enough to satisfy a larger proportion of the
> population than the more
>
> > >> "specialized" field dogs. Breeding
> is an art and takes true dedication
>
> > >> of time, money and spirit, and the
> willingness to accept continued
>
> > >> responsibility for the dogs we breed. While I
> don't concern myself with
>
> > >> people who are breeding for a different
> outcome, I do note that many of
>
> > >> the most influential dogs in the history of
> the breed, including the
>
> > >> field, more closely resembled the current
> dogs in the show ring than
>
> > >> those in the field. There are some dedicated
> breeders out there (like
>
> > >> the Chandlers) who are dedicated to producing
> excellent examples of dual
>
> > >> champions. Unfortunately, many of us cannot
> afford the time or cost to
>
> > >> participate in all areas of performance so we
> concentrate on the
>
> > >> particular activities that we are most likely
> to excel at. This does
>
> > >> not mean the dogs are any less true to type
> or ability. Our success in
>
> > >> our endeavors and the feedback from our
> buyers and our peers are the
>
> > >> only measurement we have of our efforts.
>
> > >>
>
> > >> Judges education, breeder education and
> ethics, and maintaining the
>
> > >> right to keep our animals, as well as making
> performance events
>
> > >> available to measure our outcomes, are the
> direction that the Board
>
> > >> needs to concern itself with most. Otherwise,
> the cream will rise to
>
> > >> the top and those who do not find it
> rewarding in our breed will switch
>
> > >> to another.
>
> > >>
>
> > >> Amen
>
> > >>
>
> > >> Andi Owens
>
> > >> Unwillyn GSPs
>
> > >>
>
> > >> On Aug 3, 2009, at 9:03 AM, bleugrasgsp@aol.com
> wrote:
>
> > >>
>
> > >>> Letter to the Editor:
>
> > >>> I find it distressing to read the
> President's comment in the Journal
>
> > >>> July/August 2009, that he feels the
> showdogs are "...oversized with
>
> > >>> straight fronts, lacking condition and
> most were having problems with
>
> > >>> hunting and scenting skills"!! and
> "In my fifteen years we have done
>
> > >>> nothing to solve this problem"!!
>
> > >>>
>
> > >>> I beg to differ with that assumption of
> the Pres. and am willing to
>
> > >>> supply much proof that the "show
> dogs" are wonderful hunters and their
>
> > >>> "scenting skills" are not
> lost!! This morning, in fact, I received an
>
> > >>> e-mail stating , "she is the most
> intense hunter", about a "showdog"
>
> > >>> bought from me several years ago...and I
> have many many more e-mails
>
> > >>> and letters declaring the same!
>
> > >>>
>
> > >>> President Blackbourn states, "..it
> is still my firm belief that the
>
> > >>> direction of the Breed both in
> conformation and athletic performance
>
> > >>> should be directed by the Board." I
> am not sure of what that means nor
>
> > >>> infers, but I would suspect that many
> longtime breeders feel that the
>
> > >>> "direction" of the breed lay in
> THEIR hands, not in the hands of the
>
> > >>> "Board".
>
> > >>>
>
> > >>> Perhaps further clarification and
> explanation of these statements could
>
> > >>> be elaborated upon.
>
> > >>>
>
> > >>> Eve Parsons
>
> > >>> Bleugras
>
> > >>>
>
> > >>>
>
> > >>> **************
>
> > >>> A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See
> yours in just 2 easy steps!
>
> > >>>
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222846709x1201493018/aol?redir
=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx
>
>
> > >>>
> ?sc=668072&hmpgID=115&bcd=JulystepsfooterNO115)
>
> > >>
>
> > >>
> **********************************************************************
>
> > >>
>
> > >> >
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Get free photo
> software from Windows Live Click
> here.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Get free photo software from Windows Live Click
> here. =
>
>
|
|
|
|
|
Adam
SH
Posts:53
|
| 08/07/2009 5:45 PM |
|
| Dave you said "But they are critically important because they ask more of the dog than any other testing or trialing venue."
Please explain? These dogs can be collared out of situations, aren't penalized if the blow a back as long a they don't interfere with the other dog, can be in other words BEGGED to retrieve the bird( as long as it gets back it counts) I'm sorry but I still feel NAVHDA asks much more out of a "finished" dog than a field trial does..
--- On Fri, 8/7/09, Dave Quindt wrote:
> From: Dave Quindt
> Subject: RE: [gsp-l] Fw: President's message current magazine
> To: gsp-l@web.whc.net
> Date: Friday, August 7, 2009, 5:51 PM
>
>
>
> #yiv1819789197 .hmmessage P
> {
> margin:0px;padding:0px;}
> #yiv1819789197 {
> font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;}
>
>
>
> CJ Galbraith
> wrote:
>
> “ I would like to know how many of the field
> trial folks, who have the big running dogs and own their own
> horses, actually hunt over their dogs on
> horseback? Or is this just a ‘package’ that
> is bred and trained to compete in field trials and has no
> other real
> purpose? “
>
> Why are
> you so focused on the manner that the handler uses to get
> around? In both recreational
> hunting and horseback field trials, the dogs hunt
> likely cover, uses their noses to find birds and their
> pointing instincts to point birds, and have to maintain
> contact with the handler.
> Whether the handler is walking or riding has no
> impact on the dog, other than the pace of the handler and
> the ability for the handler and dog to maintain contact with
> each other. To the dog, it's
> ALL hunting.
>
> Contrary to popular belief (especially among those
> with little or no hunting experience) you don’t use a
> horse to “keep up” to the dog; you use a horse to push
> the dog further than he would when handled on
> foot.
>
> I
> horseback FT my dogs, along with walking trials, and in the
> past NAVHDA & hunt tests. I
> don’t have “Field Trial dogs”, I have dogs that I
> trial and hunt and are personal pets.
> 90% of the people I know who trial have the same
> thing. I know only a handful of “trialers”, but I know
> hundreds of “hunters who trial in the
> offseason”.
>
> My
> young dog right now is on the prairies of North Dakota on a
> training trip, being run off of horseback on wild
> birds. He’s going to run a
> number of horseback trials this late summer & early
> fall. Then he’s going to come
> home and will be hunted this fall. 75% of my hunting is in the grouse
> woods of Wisconsin . There’s
> no horseback or truck or ATV hunting for me; most of the
> places I hunt you can’t see more than 40 yards and the
> best places are so thick you can barely see the sky. The places I hunt would make most of
> you cry for your momma J And yet, I want dogs that can
> compete in horseback trials, because I believe those traits
> result in a better wild bird dog.
>
> I’ve played virtually all of the games; started
> in NAVHDA and went to hunt tests and then walking trials and
> now a mix of walking and horseback. I’ve seen the best that every venue
> produces, and the worse. In my
> experience, field trials (particularly horseback ones) give
> me the best venue to evaluate breeding stock for the
> specific traits I want in a great hunting dog. Hunt test or NSTRA or NAVHDA may look
> more visually similar to foot hunting, but those venues
> don’t produce better wild bird foot dogs because of it.
> When someone develops a
> “better mousetrap” I’ll focus my attention on
> that.
>
> Does it mean that I feel that FTs are perfect, or
> that the winner is by default the best wild bird hunting
> dog? Nope; not by a long
> shot. I’ve written a ton here and
> elsewhere about my critiques of field trials and trialers,
> to much protest from fellow trialers. “Field trials”, whether they are
> to find the best dogs, or cars, or strains of sweet corn, or
> cancer drugs or fighter jets, are tools of the extreme.
> The goal is to push the subject
> being “field trialed” harder and to the extreme, past
> the point that the average user will ever get to. The goal is to “let the cream rise
> to the top” over and over. Horseback trials
> don't have to be, and shouldn't ever be, the only
> field testing venue we have. But they are critically
> important because they ask more of the dog than any other
> testing or trialing venue.
>
> So this constant game that many of the show folks
> want to play of pitting the hunter against the field trialer
> ain’t going to fly with me, because I’m both a hunter
> AND a trialer, as are most of the other folks I compete
> with/against.
>
> JMO,
> Dave
> Get back to school stuff for
> them and cashback for you. Try
> Bing now.
>
|
|
|
|
|
bajnok
MH
Posts:67
|
| 08/07/2009 7:54 PM |
|
|
Generally not. The Vizsla folk spent years and tons of money
(through the Magyar Vizsla Society) to fund a test that would distinguish Vizsla
from Pointer. Test cross breedings were done etc etc. After years, some markers
were eventually identified that did the job but only in the F1 generation. As
soon as you got past that, they lost any usefulness. The Society disposed of
assets and folded down eventually.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, August 07, 2009 4:52
PM
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Fw: President's
message current magazine
Unfortunately the genetics people will have a very hard time
developing a test to distinguish between pure GSPs and GSPs crossbred with
Pointers for a bigger run, because Pointers are a part of the very early
foundations of the development of GSPs, so some of the genetic material from
them is still in our breed.
Does anyone know if this is actually the case? Pretty much
every breed is a composition of foundation breeds. That doesn't mean we
can't tell them apart genetically. Can they distinguish between GSPs and
Foxhounds or Spanish Pointers? They were also used to found the
breed. Does anyone have data on this? If not, I will contact the
people who market the DNA test and see what they say.
|
|
|
|
|
adabb
JH
Posts:20
|
| 08/07/2009 10:43 PM |
|
Wow, there are so many posts on this thread that I’d like
to respond to! Unfortunately I just don’t have the time, so here
are my comments
We hunt our “field trial dogs” both on foot and on
horseback. Depends on where we are hunting, but for the most part we hunt
on foot. The dogs should be smart enough to adjust their range to the
terrain and to the handler (mounted or foot). I’ve
hunted my dogs everywhere from the prairies for pheasants and Huns to the pacific
coast rainforest for grouse . They don’t run “huge” in
the forests, but they will on the wide open prairie.
We always have several dogs in the house with us, yes, the same
dogs we field trial and they all have great temperaments. That
includes my girl “Petra” who ran big enough last year to win both
shooting dog stakes at an AF spring trial. This same field trial dog also
has her CD and is now show pointed in Canada (but not handled in the ring by
me!). My husband’s dog, who was RU in last year’s
National Amateur Gun Dog championship in Kansas, is also great in the
house. We hunt him on foot every fall. No “bad pointer
blood” here, just a couple of versatile, trainable, GSPs.
It’s disappointing to see some of the accusations etc. flying
around here, no wonder there is such a split in our breed.
Arwen
WindRip Reg'd GSPs
Home of: Smokin Blue Cairo CD FDJ JH
NSD FT/AFTCh WindRip's Reckoning Day CD,
FD, SH
WindRip's Shot In The Dark
From:
gsp-l-request@web.whc.net [mailto:gsp-l-request@web.whc.net] On Behalf Of CJ
Galbraith
Sent: August 7, 2009 11:25 AM
To: gsp-l@web.whc.net
Subject: RE: [gsp-l] Fw: President's message current magazine
Haven’t put my two cents in for a while, so here it
is. I would like to know how many of the field trial folks, who have the
big running dogs and own their own horses, actually hunt over their dogs on
horseback? Or is this just a ‘package’ that is bred and
trained to compete in field trials and has no other real purpose?
If the field trialers in a club put together the trials, and
have a majority rule, then others who have a great hunting dog (as defined in
the rules as Gun Dog, vs. All Age) that is titled in the show ring and would
like to compete for a Dual have a real uphill battle. The judge’s
panel is often of like-minded folks similar to the majority that hires them,
ie., the ideal dog might run past two covey’s on his way to a 3rd
that is 3 miles away, and he holds his point on the 3rd covey until
his handler gets there. And quite frankly, it’s not unusual for
judges to want to see just as big a run in a Walking Trial, as it is for judges
to want a big run in Gun Dog just as they expect in All Age.
C.J. Galbraith
Winterburn GSPs
Boulder, CO
Nat'l Int'l UKC AKC CH GDR UnWillyn Firebird SH
Int'l UKC AKC CH BurrDee Winterburn MayaKarma MH
720-470-2759
From:
gsp-l-request@web.whc.net [mailto:gsp-l-request@web.whc.net] On Behalf Of Robert
H Johnston
Sent: Friday, August 07, 2009 12:07 PM
To: gsp-l
Subject: RE: [gsp-l] Fw: President's message current magazine
I
won't argue with that. I've written many posts about the falsification of
breeding records and the damage they have done to the breed. I do not defend
crossbreeding and I know it is common in the field trial game. Over the
years with the introduction of horseback handling and especially gaited horses,
extended range has been emphasized to the point where finding a good hunting
dog that will hunt for a foot hunter from field trial stock can be a problem.
I'm hoping that DNA testing and the burgeoning popularity of walking field
trials will bring the Shorthair back to a quality gundog capable of being
hunted over and handled by a foot hunter. Still, the evaluation of
instinctive traits of hunting dogs should be done in field trials, where the
rubber hits the road, rather than by visual observation in a dog show. The fact
that some show dogs are good hunting dogs is due to the traits
instilled by the creators of the breed which have been genetically handed down
and the fact that some people work hard to show dogs that they know are good
trial dogs, the Dual dog people. Unfortunately there aren't that many of them.
Sincerely, Bob Johnston
To: gsp-l@web.whc.net
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Fw: President's message current magazine
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2009 09:26:04 -0400
From: nmk1gsp@aol.com
While I agree that GSP style, stamina and desire seem to get lost in some
breeding programs along with natural hunting & retrieving ability, I just
wonder if Cal and Bob would like to guess what the percent of PUREBRED GSP's
are currently running in AKC Field Trials. I am not convinced that the
HUGE influx of Pointer DNA in field trial pedigrees over the
years has helped the GSP breed either. A huge percent of my puppy
buyers either want a dog to hunt with and or compete with at least at Hunt Test
level. And every puppy buyer wants GSP temperament...not what is behind
curtain #2. Our rescue is swamped with cross breeds that unsuspecting folks purchased
expecting GSP type & temperament and could not live with because they are
NOT purebred GSP's. It does not matter how great a bird dog it is if you can
not live with it!!!!!!!
Not breeding for what our forefathers in this breed invisioned is a huge
mistake for all concerned...and there is more than enough blame on both sides
of the isle for straying from what was intended to be a medium sized,
powerfully built, medium range gun dog. Here's my point...ANY BREEDER
not striving to create a GSP that is purebred and with solid
natural hunting ability is NOT doing any of us a favor or our Breed.
Carol Chadwick
15 Duals and counting
Northwood Mountain Kennels
-----Original Message-----
From: Cal Palmer
To: gsp-l@web.whc.net
Sent: Fri, Aug 7, 2009 3:22 am
Subject: RE: [gsp-l] Fw: President's message current magazine
Well pointed, Bob. The preceding posts point out an
unfortunate fact these days that so many breeders of GSPs are not hunters
themselves, and instead rely on anecdotal feedback from their buyers (many of
whom also are probably not hunters either) for evidence that their pups are the
best hunting dogs they have ever owned.
Can you believe it! The President of the GSP of America actually wants the
Board of Directors to promulgate the breeding of GSPs which exemplify the
traits supposedly inherent in the breed, to wit: seeking, finding,
pointing and retrieving game birds with style and intensity on land and in
water. The NERVE of the guy. What about Frisbee chasing, hurdling, retrieving
balls, excelling in couch potatoing, competing in agility tests and chasing
Geckos and Flies? Lets not forget Shows where the dogs demonstrate their
athleticism and physical conditioning by following at a slow trot those
paragons of physical prowess, the show handlers.
Even worse, the Prez (Dolt that he is) wants hunting desire and
traits demonstrated in Field Trials just like the developers of the breed did
when they brought the breed into existence. Never mind that Field trials are
used by industry, science, the medical field and every agency that wants
to demonstrate that their product will meet certain
specifications. We know better don't we? We can tell just by looking at a dog
on a leash whether it wants to hunt and can perform to a standard. What
about test flights, time trials, vaccine development, science experiments, why
bother, we can tell how they would turn out without physical demonstration just
by thinking about it. Get real, shows are worthless for demonstrating that dogs
possess the characteristics needed to be a good hunting dog, even if they are a
lot of fun. The foregoing is not to say that Field trials as presently
constituted could not be improved.
Finally, there are areas of agreement, most of the guys I know in
field trialing are definitely not in favor of straight fronts. Bob Johnston,
Tacoma WA
> From: chpaisley@sbcglobal.net
> To: gsp-l@web.whc.net
> Subject: [gsp-l] Fw: President's message current magazine
> Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2009 14:46:20 -0400
>
>
> Subject: Re: President's message current magazine
>
>
> >I agree with you 110%! After years of being a member of the GSPC of
Ohio as
> >well as President, Secretary, and Board member and specialty show
chair for
> >10+ years, I resigned from its' membership along with many other
people.
> >After trying to educate the field trialers on health clearances,
ethics,
> >and proper breeding practices, I was met with "you are just
against field
> >dogs" and could not in good conscience, remain involved and help
make money
> >for people who have no desire to see our breed go in a positive
direction
> >as far as health issues and breeding practices are concerned!
> >
> > Barb
> > http://sonnenscheinshorthairs.tripod.com/
> > Sonnenschein Shorthairs
> > "relive the past, experience the present, shape the future"
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Paul & Andrea Owens" <Unwillyn@AOL.COM>
> >> Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 1:09 PM
> > Subject: Re: President's message current magazine
> >
> >
> >> Well, this has been an "issue" for more than the
President's 15 years,
> >> and more than my 35+ years in the breed. I think the
"argument" will
> >> only resolve itself when field trials become obsolete, which is
> >> inevitable I too have had many people tell me that dogs they
got
> >> from me were the best hunting dogs and companions they had ever
owned
> >> (most were not first time GSP owners). I have never represented
my dogs
> >> to be best suited for field trials, though I have bred one Dual.
I have
> >> always been more concerned with soundness, temperament and type
than on
> >> range in the field. My own observations over the years have led
me to
> >> believe that many, but not all, field trialers were less
concerned with
> >> correct conformation than the "show breeders", because
their argument
> >> that form follows function leads them to believe that a dog's
ability to
> >> run for an hour in the desert, with a scout on horseback or a
tracking
> >> collar necessary to locate them, indicates soundness and desire.
Some
> >> of the photos I've seen of field dogs were arguably some of the
> >> straightest, most undersized, undernourished and questionably
purebred
> >> dogs I've ever seen, with bad bites and very short lived. I have
always
> >> had trouble understanding the usefulness of dogs needing to cover
so
> >> much ground for the modern hunter and was always dismayed that
the Gun
> >> Dogs seemed to be just All Age dogs that didn't make it. I also
hate
> >> meeting people who comment that they once owned one, but the
breed was
> >> too hyper for them to live with. The wonderful thing about our
breed
> >> though is its versatility. We may not all want to play the same
game,
> >> but the breed is capable of satisfying all of our interests and
the dogs
> >> can bring us together with a wonderful variety of people. I have
> >> dedicated myself to perpetuating a breed that is loved and
cherished and
> >> appreciated by the people who own them. Many of the showdogs are
> >> lacking in fronts, some are not in good hard condition, and many
have no
> >> hunting skills because they've never even been exposed to birds
(but
> >> will hunt anything including lizards and flies). Many of their
owners
> >> are severely restricted by their limited access to suitable
grounds
> >> and/or equipment to work their dogs. But, overall, I think the
show
> >> people I am acquainted with make more of an effort to breed
healthy,
> >> sound, calm dogs that are easy and enjoyable to live with, and
versatile
> >> enough to satisfy a larger proportion of the population than the
more
> >> "specialized" field dogs. Breeding is an art and takes
true dedication
> >> of time, money and spirit, and the willingness to accept
continued
> >> responsibility for the dogs we breed. While I don't concern
myself with
> >> people who are breeding for a different outcome, I do note that
many of
> >> the most influential dogs in the history of the breed, including
the
> >> field, more closely resembled the current dogs in the show ring
than
> >> those in the field. There are some dedicated breeders out there
(like
> >> the Chandlers) who are dedicated to producing excellent examples
of dual
> >> champions. Unfortunately, many of us cannot afford the time or
cost to
> >> participate in all areas of performance so we concentrate on the
> >> particular activities that we are most likely to excel at. This
does
> >> not mean the dogs are any less true to type or ability. Our
success in
> >> our endeavors and the feedback from our buyers and our peers are
the
> >> only measurement we have of our efforts.
> >>
> >> Judges education, breeder education and ethics, and maintaining
the
> >> right to keep our animals, as well as making performance events
> >> available to measure our outcomes, are the direction that the
Board
> >> needs to concern itself with most. Otherwise, the cream will rise
to
> >> the top and those who do not find it rewarding in our breed will
switch
> >> to another.
> >>
> >> Amen
> >>
> >> Andi Owens
> >> Unwillyn GSPs
> >>
> >> On Aug 3, 2009, at 9:03 AM, bleugrasgsp@aol.com
wrote:
> >>
> >>> Letter to the Editor:
> >>> I find it distressing to read the President's comment in the
Journal
> >>> July/August 2009, that he feels the showdogs are
"...oversized with
> >>> straight fronts, lacking condition and most were having
problems with
> >>> hunting and scenting skills"!! and "In my fifteen
years we have done
> >>> nothing to solve this problem"!!
> >>>
> >>> I beg to differ with that assumption of the Pres. and am
willing to
> >>> supply much proof that the "show dogs" are
wonderful hunters and their
> >>> "scenting skills" are not lost!! This morning, in
fact, I received an
> >>> e-mail stating , "she is the most intense hunter",
about a "showdog"
> >>> bought from me several years ago...and I have many many more
e-mails
> >>> and letters declaring the same!
> >>>
> >>> President Blackbourn states, "..it is still my firm
belief that the
> >>> direction of the Breed both in conformation and athletic
performance
> >>> should be directed by the Board." I am not sure of what
that means nor
> >>> infers, but I would suspect that many longtime breeders feel
that the
> >>> "direction" of the breed lay in THEIR hands, not in
the hands of the
> >>> "Board".
> >>>
> >>> Perhaps further clarification and explanation of these
statements could
> >>> be elaborated upon.
> >>>
> >>> Eve Parsons
> >>> Bleugras
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> **************
> >>> A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy
steps!
> >>> (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222846709x1201493018/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx
> >>> ?sc=668072&hmpgID=115&bcd=JulystepsfooterNO115)
> >>
> >> **********************************************************************
> >>
> >> >
>
Get
free photo software from Windows Live N:WL:en-US:SI_PH_software:082009"
target="_new">Click here.
|
|
|
|
|
calpalmer
Posts:9
|
| 08/08/2009 11:51 AM |
|
A good method of evaluation of
conformation, but inadequate altogether to its ability to
excel at the tasks for which it is bred. Breeding decisions should be
based on both groups of attributes, not just the former. JMO,
Cal
From:
gsp-l-request@web.whc.net [mailto:gsp-l-request@web.whc.net] On Behalf Of askmegsp@aol.com
Sent: Friday, August 07, 2009
11:37 AM
To: ersonName w:st="on">gsp-l@web.whc.netersonName>
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Fw:
President's message current magazine
Still, the evaluation of instinctive traits of hunting dogs should be
done in field trials, where the rubber hits the road, rather than by visual
observation in a dog show.
I don't think anyone is
trying to evaluate hunting instinct at dog shows, rather evaluate the
similarity of the exhibits to the breed standard. Proper
conformation enhances the dogs ability to perform the tasks
for which he is bred.
Ann King-Wallace
-----Original Message-----
From: Robert H Johnston
To: gsp-l <ersonName w:st="on">gsp-l@web.whc.netersonName>>
Sent: Fri, Aug 7, 2009 2:06 pm
Subject: RE: [gsp-l] Fw: President's message current magazine
I won't argue with that. I've written many posts about the
falsification of breeding records and the damage they have done to the breed. I
do not defend crossbreeding and I know it is common in the field trial
game. Over the years with the introduction of horseback handling and especially
gaited horses, extended range has been emphasized to the point where finding a
good hunting dog that will hunt for a foot hunter from field trial stock can be
a problem. I'm hoping that DNA testing and the burgeoning popularity of walking
field trials will bring the Shorthair back to a quality gundog capable of being
hunted over and handled by a foot hunter. Still, the evaluation of
instinctive traits of hunting dogs should be done in field trials, where the rubber
hits the road, rather than by visual observation in a dog show. The fact that
some show dogs are good hunting dogs is due to the traits instilled
by the creators of the breed which have been genetically handed! down and the
fact that some people work hard to show dogs that they know are good trial
dogs, the Dual dog people. Unfortunately there aren't that many of them.
Sincerely, Bob Johnston
To: gsp-l@web.whc.net
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Fw: President's message current magazine
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2009 09:26:04 -0400
From: nmk1gsp@aol.com
While I agree that GSP style, stamina and desire seem to get lost in some
breeding programs along with natural hunting & retrieving ability, I just
wonder if Cal and Bob would like to guess what the percent of PUREBRED GSP's
are currently running in AKC Field Trials. I am not convinced that the
HUGE influx of Pointer DNA in field trial pedigrees over the
years has helped the GSP breed either. A huge percent of my puppy
buyers either want a dog to hunt with and or compete with at least at Hunt Test
level. And every puppy buyer wants GSP temperament...not what is behind
curtain #2. Our rescue is swamped with cross breeds that unsuspecting folks
purchased expecting GSP type & temperament and could not live with because
they are NOT purebred GSP's. It does not matter how great a bird dog it is if
you can not live with it!!!!!!!
Not breeding for what our forefathers in this breed invisioned is a huge
mistake for all concerned...and there is more than enough blame on both sides
of the isle for straying from what was intended to be a medium sized,
powerfully built, medium range gun dog. Here's my point...ANY BREEDER
not striving to create a GSP that is purebred and with solid
natural hunting ability is NOT doing any of us a favor or our Breed.
Carol Chadwick
15 Duals and counting
laceName w:st="on">NorthwoodlaceName> laceType
w:st="on">MountainlaceType> Kennels
-----Original Message-----
From: Cal Palmer <calpalmer@hughes.net>
To: gsp-l@web.whc.net
Sent: Fri, Aug 7, 2009 3:22 am
Subject: RE: [gsp-l] Fw: President's message current magazine
Well pointed, Bob. The preceding
posts point out an unfortunate fact these days that so many breeders of GSPs
are not hunters themselves, and instead rely on anecdotal feedback from their
buyers (many of whom also are probably not hunters either) for evidence that
their pups are the best hunting dogs they have ever owned.
Can you believe it! The President of the GSP
of America actually wants the Board of Directors to promulgate the breeding of
GSPs which exemplify the traits supposedly inherent in the breed, to
wit: seeking, finding, pointing and retrieving game birds with style and
intensity on land and in water. The NERVE of the guy. What about Frisbee
chasing, hurdling, retrieving balls, excelling in couch potatoing, competing in
agility tests and chasing Geckos and Flies? Lets not forget Shows where the
dogs demonstrate their athleticism and physical conditioning by following at a
slow trot those paragons of physical prowess, the show handlers.
Even worse, the Prez (Dolt that he is) wants hunting desire and
traits demonstrated in Field Trials just like the developers of the breed did
when they brought the breed into existence. Never mind that Field trials are
used by industry, science, the medical field and every agency that wants
to demonstrate that their product will meet certain
specifications. We know better don't we? We can tell just by looking at a dog
on a leash whether it wants to hunt and can perform to a standard. What
about test flights, time trials, vaccine development, science experiments, why
bother, we can tell how they would turn out without physical demonstration just
by thinking about it. Get real, shows are worthless for demonstrating that dogs
possess the characteristics needed to be a good hunting dog, even if they are a
lot of fun. The foregoing is not to say that Field trials as presently
constituted could not be improved.
Finally, there are areas of agreement, most of the guys I know in
field trialing are definitely not in favor of straight fronts. Bob Johnston, Tacoma WA
> From: chpaisley@sbcglobal.net
> To: gsp-l@web.whc.net
> Subject: [gsp-l] Fw: President's message current magazine
> Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2009 14:46:20 -0400
>
>
> Subject: Re: President's message current magazine
>
>
> >I agree with you 110%! After years of being a member of the GSPC of
Ohio as
> >well as President, Secretary, and Board member and specialty show
chair for
> >10+ years, I resigned from its' membership along with many other
people.
> >After trying to educate the field trialers on health clearances,
ethics,
> >and proper breeding practices, I was met with "you are just
against field
> >dogs" and could not in good conscience, remain involved and help
make money
> >for people who have no desire to see our breed go in a positive
direction
> >as far as health issues and breeding practices are concerned!
> >
> > Barb
> > http://sonnenscheinshorthairs.tripod.com/
> > Sonnenschein Shorthairs
> > "relive the past, experience the present, shape the future"
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Paul & Andrea Owens" <Unwillyn@AOL.COM>
> >> Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 1:09 PM
> > Subject: Re: President's message current magazine
> >
> >
> >> Well, this has been an "issue" for more than the
President's 15 years,
> >> and more than my 35+ years in the breed. I think the
"argument" will
> >> only resolve itself when field trials become obsolete, which is
> >> inevitable I too have had many people tell me that dogs they
got
> >> from me were the best hunting dogs and companions they had ever
owned
> >> (most were not first time GSP owners). I have never represented
my dogs
> >> to be best suited for field trials, though I have bred one Dual.
I have
> >> always been more concerned with soundness, temperament and type
than on
> >> range in the field. My own observations over the years have led
me to
> >> believe that many, but not all, field trialers were less
concerned with
> >> correct conformation than the "show breeders", because
their argument
> >> that form follows function leads them to believe that a dog's
ability to
> >> run for an hour in the desert, with a scout on horseback or a
tracking
> >> collar necessary to locate them, indicates soundness and desire.
Some
> >> of the photos I've seen of field dogs were arguably some of the
> >> straightest, most undersized, undernourished and questionably
purebred
> >> dogs I've ever seen, with bad bites and very short lived. I have
always
> >> had trouble understanding the usefulness of dogs needing to cover
so
> >> much ground for the modern hunter and was always dismayed that
the Gun
> >> Dogs seemed to be just All Age dogs that didn't make it. I also
hate
> >> meeting people who comment that they once owned one, but the
breed was
> >> too hyper for them to live with. The wonderful thing about our
breed
> >> though is its versatility. We may not all want to play the same
game,
> >> but the breed is capable of satisfying all of our interests and
the dogs
> >> can bring us together with a wonderful variety of people. I have
> >> dedicated myself to perpetuating a breed that is loved and
cherished and
> >> appreciated by the people who own them. Many of the showdogs are
> >> lacking in fronts, some are not in good hard condition, and many
have no
> >> hunting skills because they've never even been exposed to birds
(but
> >> will hunt anything including lizards and flies). Many of their
owners
> >> are severely restricted by their limited access to suitable
grounds
> >> and/or equipment to work their dogs. But, overall, I think the
show
> >> people I am acquainted with make more of an effort to breed
healthy,
> >> sound, calm dogs that are easy and enjoyable to live with, and
versatile
> >> enough to satisfy a larger proportion of the population than the
more
> >> "specialized" field dogs. Breeding is an art and takes
true dedication
> >> of time, money and spirit, and the willingness to accept
continued
> >> responsibility for the dogs we breed. While I don't concern
myself with
> >> people who are breeding for a different outcome, I do note that
many of
> >> the most influential dogs in the history of the breed, including
the
> >> field, more closely resembled the current dogs in the show ring
than
> >> those in the field. There are some dedicated breeders out there
(like
> >> the Chandlers)
who are dedicated to producing excellent examples of dual
> >> champions. Unfortunately, many of us cannot afford the time or
cost to
> >> participate in all areas of performance so we concentrate on the
> >> particular activities that we are most likely to excel at. This
does
> >> not mean the dogs are any less true to type or ability. Our
success in
> >> our endeavors and the feedback from our buyers and our peers are
the
> >> only measurement we have of our efforts.
> >>
> >> Judges education, breeder education and ethics, and maintaining
the
> >> right to keep our animals, as well as making performance events
> >> available to measure our outcomes, are the direction that the
Board
> >> needs to concern itself with most. Otherwise, the cream will rise
to
> >> the top and those who do not find it rewarding in our breed will
switch
> >> to another.
> >>
> >> Amen
> >>
> >> Andi Owens
> >> Unwillyn GSPs
> >>
> >> On Aug 3, 2009, at 9:03 AM, bleugrasgsp@aol.com
wrote:
> >>
> >>> Letter to the Editor:
> >>> I find it distressing to read the President's comment in the
Journal
> >>> July/August 2009, that he feels the showdogs are
"...oversized with
> >>> straight fronts, lacking condition and most were having
problems with
> >>> hunting and scenting skills"!! and "In my fifteen
years we have done
> >>> nothing to solve this problem"!!
> >>>
> >>> I beg to differ with that assumption of the Pres. and am
willing to
> >>> supply much proof that the "show dogs" are
wonderful hunters and their
> >>> "scenting skills" are not lost!! This morning, in
fact, I received an
> >>> e-mail stating , "she is the most intense hunter",
about a "showdog"
> >>> bought from me several years ago...and I have many many more
e-mails
> >>> and letters declaring the same!
> >>>
> >>> President Blackbourn states, "..it is still my firm
belief that the
> >>> direction of the Breed both in conformation and athletic
performance
> >>> should be directed by the Board." I am not sure of what
that means nor
> >>> infers, but I would suspect that many longtime breeders feel
that the
> >>> "direction" of the breed lay in THEIR hands, not in
the hands of the
> >>> "Board".
> >>>
> >>> Perhaps further clarification and explanation of these
statements could
> >>> be elaborated upon.
> >>>
> >>> Eve Parsons
> >>> Bleugras
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> **************
> >>> A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy
steps!
> >>> (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222846709x1201493018/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx
> >>> ?sc=668072&hmpgID=115&bcd=JulystepsfooterNO115)
> >>
> >>
**********************************************************************
> >>
> >> >
>
Get free photo software from Windows Live N:WL:en-US:SI_PH_software:082009"
target="_blank">Click here. =
|
|
|
|
|
CathyYak
MH
Posts:963
|
| 08/08/2009 11:59 AM |
|
In a message dated 8/8/2009 1:35:51 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
calpalmer@hughes.net writes:
A good method of
evaluation of conformation, but inadequate altogether to
its ability to excel at the tasks for which it is bred. Breeding
decisions should be based on both groups of attributes, not just the
former. JMO,
Cal
I agree Cal. But that swings both ways. The field dogs
should have to conform to the breed standard also. I am all for
having a minimum hunting requirement to be a CH, and a favorable conformation
evaluation to be a FC ( I won't expect them to excel though). I think this
would be a great way to put a stop to the separation between field and show
dogs. How about you?
|
|
Cathy Iacopelli
Claddagh Kennels
Long Island, New York |
|
|
rcombs3
Posts:7
|
| 08/08/2009 8:21 PM |
|
|
If us trialers have done bad things to the breed why don't
you share some of the great accomplishments you have made for the breed. My
guess is that you have a lot more to SAY than to SHOW!
Tony & Ricki Combs
Adobepoint Kennels
El Paso,
TX
rcombs3@elp.rr.com
And while you are at it, why don't you (trialers) just develop your
own breed, instead of making more of a wreck of the ones we already have? Do
what the Germans did. Pick the traits (big run etc.), and develop a new
breed to fit those traits.
Pam
Parshall
Roggenfeld Shorthairs
CathyYak@aol.com wrote:
What
"breeders in this country did to them" is EXACTLY what breeders of working
dogs SHOULD do; change the dog to fit the needs of the
sportsman. Seems perfectly logical to
me. Sportsmen didn't change the GSP to hunt
better. Traillers changed it to trial better. That is not at all
the same thing.
Flame suit on.
|
|
|
|
|
Dave Quindt
SH
Posts:41
|
| 08/08/2009 11:14 PM |
|
Adam DeLude wrote:
> Dave you said "But they are critically important because they ask more of the dog than any other testing or trialing venue."
>
> Please explain? These dogs can be collared out of situations, aren't penalized if the blow a back as long a they don't interfere with the other dog, can be in other words BEGGED to retrieve the bird( as long as it gets back it counts) I'm sorry but I still feel NAVHDA asks much more out of a "finished" dog than a field trial does..
Adam,
NAVHDA has a very strong testing program; it's where I got my start. They've done a great job of organizing and developing not only a testing program, but a training assistance program for the general hunting dog public. They are without doubt the "organization of choice" for those new to pointing dogs.
Having said that, there's a big difference between testing and trialing. The most successful NAVHDA dogs spend only 3 days of their testing career under judgment. The most successful trial dogs spend their careers under judgment, having run dozens upon dozens of times. They are run from one end of the country to another. Pen-raised birds, wild birds, hot weather, cold weather; if you are using trials to evaluate stock, you'll see those dogs is every possible scenario imaginable.
Regarding standards, you seem to forget that NAVHDA bases it's judging standards on the 75% standard; if a dog performs to standard only 75% of the time, that is acceptable for a Prize 1 title. So, a dog can rip and chase on 1 out of 5 birds in a UT test and still get a UT1. Compare that against a trial dog who must handle every bird correctly in order to even be considered for a win. A successful trial dog will have dozens of placements over its career.
Also, field trialing is the only format where a dog's application is judged. Hunt tests, both NAVHDA and AKC, don't judge how a dog hunts, or applies himself to the cover. The goal of trials is to push hunting dogs harder and further, to ask more from them than any hunter ever would, to expect more from them than the average trainer can deliver. Although trialing is far from perfect, IMO it's the best venue we have today to evaluate potential breeding stock.
JMO,
Dave
Express your personality in color! Preview and select themes for Hotmail®. Try it now.
|
|
|
|
|
quailhuntmaster
Posts:7
|
| 08/09/2009 6:19 AM |
|
Hello,
I read the first post on this subject two days ago and just checked
e-mail again. Wow! A few comments:
First, I would like to thank Charlie Blackbourn for saying something.
This is a subject that needs discussion.
Second, I would disagree with Charlie on one point at least. Here in the
Southeast I would say more than 80% of the show Champions could, with
some training, be good personal (meat/preserve) hunting dogs. This has
been proven since the late 1980s when the hunting test came about. With
limited or no training, numerous dogs from several show lines easily
pass the junior level.
Third, I would like to point out to the “show people” that Charlie
criticized the “field people” too.
I would also like to point out that most upland bird dog hunting in this
county is done on shooting preserves. I firmly believe that today in the
United States of America, the German Shorthaired Pointer should be a
conformationally sound, cover-working bird dog that lives in the house.
Having such ground-covering dogs to breed to closer-working dogs is an
asset to breeders. Yes, I would like to see more interbreeding between
the field and show lines. I know that (because of the intense
competition) field wants to breed to best field and show to best show.
But the goal should be both.
Some additional comments: On the use of the word English Pointers in
these e-mails. If there was any English Pointer bred into Shorthairs in
this county, it is American Field English Pointer. This is almost a
separate breed from AKC/Show English Pointers. If anyone is wondering
why someone would breed a Pointer to a Shorthair -- just go back to 1909
-- that is 9 years after our breed was founded. Some of the top breeders
at that time bred to Pointers to help in the field.
*Note to Martha: I hope Stryder will have his Field Championship and
Master Hunter by 2010 Show Nationals. He just got his OAJ and OA titles.
He is not yet 5 years old. He is not the fastest in agility, but very
consistent, and my handling is improving! We’ll be going for and MXJ/MX
titles at 2010 Nationals if all goes well. Then on to 20 QQ’s and 750
points…no problem ;-). I’m going for it!
JMO,
K. Todd Knouff
Neirol GSPs -- titles my dogs have accomplished: Dual CH., FC., AFC.,
MH., RE, OAJ, OA., NRD, CGC
From: dlquindt@hotmail.com
To: gsp-l@web.whc.net
Subject: RE: [gsp-l] Fw: President's message current magazine
Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2009 00:00:08 -0500
Adam DeLude wrote:
> Dave you said "But they are critically important because they ask more of the dog than any other testing or trialing venue."
>
> Please explain? These dogs can be collared out of situations, aren't penalized if the blow a back as long a they don't interfere with the other dog, can be in other words BEGGED to retrieve the bird( as long as it gets back it counts) I'm sorry but I still feel NAVHDA asks much more out of a "finished" dog than a field trial does..
Adam,
NAVHDA has a very strong testing program; it's where I got my start. They've done a great job of organizing and developing not only a testing program, but a training assistance program for the general hunting dog public. They are without doubt the "organization of choice" for those new to pointing dogs.
Having said that, there's a big difference between testing and trialing. The most successful NAVHDA dogs spend only 3 days of their testing career under judgment. The most successful trial dogs spend their careers under judgment, having run dozens upon dozens of times. They are run from one end of the country to another. Pen-raised birds, wild birds, hot weather, cold weather; if you are using trials to evaluate stock, you'll see those dogs is every possible scenario imaginable.
Regarding standards, you seem to forget that NAVHDA bases it's judging standards on the 75% standard; if a dog performs to standard only 75% of the time, that is acceptable for a Prize 1 title. So, a dog can rip and chase on 1 out of 5 birds in a UT test and still get a UT1. Compare that against a trial dog who must handle every bird correctly in order to even be considered for a win. A successful trial dog will have dozens of placements over its career.
Also, field trialing is the only format where a dog's application is judged. Hunt tests, both NAVHDA and AKC, don't judge how a dog hunts, or applies himself to the cover. The goal of trials is to push hunting dogs harder and further, to ask more from them than any hunter ever would, to expect more from them than the average trainer can deliver. Although trialing is far from perfect, IMO it's the best venue we have today to evaluate potential breeding stock.
JMO,
Dave
Express your personality in color! Preview and select themes for Hotmail®. N:WL:en-US:WM_HYGN_express:082009">Try it now.
Get your vacation photos on your phone! Click here.
|
|
|
|
|
Dave Quindt
SH
Posts:41
|
| 08/10/2009 11:22 PM |
|
Leita Estes wrote:
" FT puppies cost much more to buy than show puppies"
Leita,
What do you think the average FT puppy costs? What do you think the average show puppy costs?
Just curious,
Dave
Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync. Check it out.
|
|
|
|
|
pixie bee
MH
Posts:4448
|
| 08/11/2009 6:37 AM |
|
A versatile venue is about identifying dogs with different levels of ability for a breeding program and the other is about a competition where a judge can pick a dog simply because he liked that dog's look.
I can not speak for AKC but NAVHDA does judge how a dog applies himself to the terrain and the hunter during the field search and throughout the UT test. If the goal of trials is to push a dog harder and further,then speed and stamina seem to be what is important.
In versatility, what is important is an overall performance,in the same day, on a variety of game and tasks.Each task requires nose,desire,cooperation,obedience,independece,boldness and intelligence. A dog must switch from water work,which includes steadiness when in and out of sight of the handler with gunfire and seen game, to a bird drag to field search that requires steady to fall. I will admit, a dog is not judged on how far ahead of the handler it searched nor is the dog judged on its speed and no scouts are needed.
Francine |
|
"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
|
|
|
ASKMEGSP
MH
Posts:184
|
| 08/13/2009 9:55 AM |
|
|
Nancy, I think it IS good enough to have the clearances. IMO a CHIC designation is a happy $15 in OFA's pocket to record the CD clearance. If interested enough in breeding to a dog, I always ask the owner about the clearances and don't rely solely on what appears on OFA's website.
Ann
www.olderidgegspviz.org
-----Original Message-----
From: NanROCCo@aol.com
To: gsp-l@web.whc.net
Sent: Thu, Aug 13, 2009 10:56 am
Subject: Re: FW: [gsp-l] Fw: President's message current magazine
Leita,
The problem isn't just field trialers not health testing its the "show" people as well. I just did a quick search of the top 20 dogs in our breed only 3 are CHIC's, 6 have no health testing done at all, 8 of the other 11 either haven't cerf'd their dogs or havent sent it in, 4 of the 11 don't have cardiac clearences or haven't sent them in, 10 of the 11 aren't CD tested or have not sent it in.. What good is the health testing if people aren't going to send in the results to the ofa database?
Ever think maybe the field trialers just dont send theirs in either?
Adam
I have to admit, I seldom send my stuff in. OFA goes in automatically, but the CERF I do every year, and never send it. Heart also. Chic was not even part of the picture for most of my time in breeding, but for the last 20 years all of mine have been health checked as follows: Hips, Eyes (CD and CERF), heart by a board certified cardiologist. I used to do VWD and thyroid, but have stopped doing that, as we have virtually no incidence of VWD in the breed, and thyroid tends to manifest, when it does when dogs are old. I see a lot of rescues through here, so see a pile more GSPs of all ages than most folks. I am not actively breeding any more, but I make sure any co-bred litters that my name is on are all health checked. I think I will send things in going forward, if there is a forward, as is seems to have become an issue with CHIC. Sorry, I guess I thought as long as I held the clearances, it was good enough. Nancy Campbell, Homesteaders
|
|
|
|
|
Adam
SH
Posts:53
|
| 08/13/2009 12:12 PM |
|
|
I prefer to think of that $15 investment, instead of money out of my pocket into OFA's, as a chronicle for breeders down the road when we and our dogs are no longer around and people are trying to do research to see why some health issue is showing up years later. After all it's only half the price of an entry fee which does what exactly to help the breed?!
Adam
--- On Thu, 8/13/09, askmegsp@aol.com wrote:
> From: askmegsp@aol.com
> Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Fw: President's message current magazine
> To: gsp-l@web.whc.net
> Date: Thursday, August 13, 2009, 10:34 AM
>
> Nancy, I think it IS good enough to have the
> clearances. IMO a CHIC designation is a happy $15 in
> OFA's pocket to record the CD clearance. If interested
> enough in breeding to a dog, I always ask the owner about
> the clearances and don't rely solely on what appears on
> OFA's website.
>
>
>
>
>
> Ann
>
>
> www.olderidgegspviz.org
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: NanROCCo@aol.com
>
> To: gsp-l@web.whc.net
>
> Sent: Thu, Aug 13, 2009 10:56 am
>
> Subject: Re: FW: [gsp-l] Fw: President's message
> current magazine
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> In a message dated 8/12/2009 8:01:42 P.M. Eastern
> Daylight Time, thefirstdayback@yahoo.com
> writes:
>
> Leita,
>
>
>
> The problem isn't just field trialers not health
> testing its the "show" people as well. I
> just did a quick search of the top 20 dogs in our breed only
> 3 are CHIC's, 6 have no health testing done at all, 8 of
> the other 11 either haven't cerf'd their dogs or
> havent sent it in, 4 of the 11 don't have cardiac
> clearences or haven't sent them in, 10 of the 11
> aren't CD tested or have not sent it in.. What good is
> the health testing if people aren't going to send in the
> results to the ofa database?
>
>
>
> Ever think maybe the field trialers just dont send theirs
> in either?
>
>
>
> Adam
>
>
>
>
>
> I have to admit, I seldom send my stuff in. OFA goes
> in automatically, but the CERF I do every year, and never
> send it. Heart also. Chic was not even part of the picture
> for most of my time in breeding, but for the last 20 years
> all of mine have been health checked as follows: Hips, Eyes
> (CD and CERF), heart by a board certified cardiologist. I
> used to do VWD and thyroid, but have stopped doing that, as
> we have virtually no incidence of VWD in the breed, and
> thyroid tends to manifest, when it does when dogs are old. I
> see a lot of rescues through here, so see a pile more GSPs
> of all ages than most folks. I am not actively breeding any
> more, but I make sure any co-bred litters that my name is on
> are all health checked. I think I will send things in going
> forward, if there is a forward, as is seems to have become
> an issue with CHIC. Sorry, I guess I thought as long as I
> held the clearances, it was good enough. Nancy Campbell,
> Homesteaders
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
|
|
|
|
|
RoggenfeldGSPs1
MH
Posts:137
|
| 08/13/2009 1:57 PM |
|
As I recall, a few years ago at the NSS ,the health seminar was given
by a Vet discussing breeding coefficients and he mentioned what a great
job we had done knocking down the percent of displastic dogs in our
breed. He got that information by statistically analyzing the OFA
reports. If we don't send in all the info to OFA, then any statistical
analyses on the health screenings listed with OFA will be invalid too.
Pam Parshall
Roggenfeld Shorthairs
Adam DeLude wrote:
I prefer to think of that $15 investment, instead of money out of my pocket into OFA's, as a chronicle for breeders down the road when we and our dogs are no longer around and people are trying to do research to see why some health issue is showing up years later. After all it's only half the price of an entry fee which does what exactly to help the breed?!
Adam
--- On Thu, 8/13/09, askmegsp@aol.com wrote:
|
|
|
|
|
CathyYak
MH
Posts:963
|
| 08/13/2009 5:19 PM |
|
|
I am often surprised that the very people who discredit other's dogs for
not having clearances because they can't find them online are the very same
people who claim to have their dog's clearances at home on their desk, with
nothing but hips on the OFA site, or anything on CERF. People, I will
never understand them.
I agree that listing clearances is a useful tool for people doing research
and looking for a direction to go with their breeding programs. If I am
going to pay $200 to get my dog's heart cleared by Doppler Echo, why crib
about $15 to list it? OFA has done us all a great service for very little
money. And the research we can do for free on their site is
priceless. I have no problem sending them $15 to list my clearances done
by other organizations. I am proud to list them.
I don't want to have to call the owner of every dog I think I might
possibly be interested in. I think it would be a little
embarrassing to call someone about their stud dog, then decide not to use
them. It would make me uncomfortable when next we met. I will look
at LOTS of studs before narrowing my search down enough to actually contact
owners. In that initial research period, I will likely dismiss some
because I can't find any clearances on them or their ancestors. Might be
my loss in the long run, but it might be their loss too.
As far as listing CERF, you only need list it once to get a CHIC
number. My boy has been CERFed six times, I only listed with CERF 3 times,
but I will probably do it each time down the road anyway. You only have to
list CD once. And cardiac once. Adhemar's Mom was CERFed 8 times, I
only listed her twice. At least anyone looking can see they passed.
And if they contact me, I have the paperwork on all the ones I didn't send
in.
I can't see me pushing people to test and not letting them see that I have
done it too.
|
|
Cathy Iacopelli
Claddagh Kennels
Long Island, New York |
|
|
NanROCCo
MH
Posts:389
|
| 08/15/2009 4:17 PM |
|
In a message dated 8/13/2009 7:05:54 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
CathyYak@aol.com writes:
I can't see me pushing people to test and not letting them see that I
have done it too.
Cathy, With most of us, we supply both either stud dog owner or bitch owner
with copies of the actual certificates. We came before CHIC and before
there were so many tests, and we were testing fully, when few others were. If I
supply stud dog or bitch owners with the certificates that they have passed
their clearances, that was the requirement in the day. I have already said I am
no longer actively breeding and that I will submit my clearances to the
organizations who record them. The point is having the clearances done, not
necessarily where the record is. I think it is lovely that someone who has OFA
fair hips on a dog gets a CHIC, and people, who do not do enough research go to
breed to the dog. There are errors everywhere, and I do not hold myself above
them. A lot of this is " I've got you now you dirty b_stard." An old game. Just
new players. If we believe in testing and do it, and have done it for years, I
do not think we should be castigated because we hold the records and just have
not sent them in. I remember thinking my cardiologist did send them in, and my
eye guy did. It took me several years to learn they did not. 'With what we pay
them, they should. It is not merely the $15, but that we have paid for hip
x-rays, call that around $200 here, then CD, you know the cost of that, then
echo, ouch. Why cannot the testers send them in? It is a money game. Already
said I will send my records in for the dogs, I have not, but if anyone wants to
breed to my dog, or bitch (both of which are my choices), what I supply them
must satisfy them or not. If not, no breeding. Just as with me. Most of the
people you are blaming are leaders in having their dogs health tested, as you
know.. This is just a registry matter, and easy to solve. Mea Culpa, but I have
already said I will send my tests in. For the world to see. Nothing here having
to do with health tests to question. There are other things, not health tested
that I am in a quandary about, but there is nobody to help me with those. All
the best, Just my point of view, and you have yours. Nancy Campbell, Homesteader
GSPs et al.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| You are not authorized to post a reply. |
|
|
|
ActiveForums 3.7
|
You must be logged in to use this module.
|
 |
Membership: |
 |
Latest:
CliffBaill |
 |
New Today:
0 |
 |
New Yesterday:
0 |
 |
Overall:
3204 |
 |
People Online: |
 |
Visitors:
83 |
 |
Members:
0 |
 |
Total:
83 |
Online Now:
|
|
|
|
|