Still, the evaluation of instinctive traits of hunting dogs should be done in field trials, where the rubber hits the road, rather than by visual observation in a dog show.

To: gsp-l
Sent: Fri, Aug 7, 2009 2:06 pm
Subject: RE: [gsp-l] Fw: President's message current magazine

I won't argue with that. I've written many posts about the falsification of breeding records and the damage they have done to the breed. I do not defend crossbreeding and I know it is common in the field trial game. Over the years with the introduction of horseback handling and especially gaited horses, extended range has been emphasized to the point where finding a good hunting dog that will hunt for a foot hunter from field trial stock can be a problem. I'm hoping that DNA testing and the burgeoning popularity of walking field trials will bring the Shorthair back to a quality gundog capable of being hunted over and handled by a foot hunter. Still, the evaluation of instinctive traits of hunting dogs should be done in field trials, where the rubber hits the road, rather than by visual observation in a dog show. The fact that some show dogs are good hunting dogs is due to the traits instilled by the creators of the breed which have been genetically handed! down and the fact that some people work hard to show dogs that they know are good trial dogs, the Dual dog people. Unfortunately there aren't that many of them. Sincerely, Bob Johnston
 

---

To: gsp-l@web.whc.net
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Fw: President's message current magazine
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2009 09:26:04 -0400
From: nmk1gsp@aol.com

While I agree that GSP style, stamina and desire seem to get lost in some breeding programs along with natural hunting & retrieving ability, I just wonder if Cal and Bob would like to guess what the percent of PUREBRED GSP's are currently running in AKC Field Trials.  I am not convinced that the HUGE influx of Pointer DNA in field trial pedigrees over the years has helped the GSP breed either.  A huge percent of my puppy buyers either want a dog to hunt with and or compete with at least at Hunt Test level.  And every puppy buyer wants GSP temperament...not what is behind curtain #2. Our rescue is swamped with cross breeds that unsuspecting folks purchased expecting GSP type & temperament and could not live with because they are NOT purebred GSP's. It does not matter how great a bird dog it is if you can not live with it!!!!!!!
Not breeding for what our forefathers in this breed invisioned is a huge mistake for all concerned...and there is more than enough blame on both sides of the isle for straying from what was intended to be a medium sized, powerfully built, medium range gun dog.  Here's my point...ANY BREEDER not striving to create a GSP that is purebred and with solid natural hunting ability is NOT doing any of us a favor or our Breed.
Carol Chadwick
15 Duals and counting
Northwood Mountain Kennels

-----Original Message-----
From: Cal Palmer <calpalmer@hughes.net>
To: gsp-l@web.whc.net
Sent: Fri, Aug 7, 2009 3:22 am
Subject: RE: [gsp-l] Fw: President's message current magazine

Well pointed, Bob.  The preceding posts point out an unfortunate fact these days that so many breeders of GSPs are not hunters themselves, and instead rely on anecdotal feedback from their buyers (many of whom also are probably not hunters either) for evidence that their pups are the best hunting dogs they have ever owned. 

 

---

From: gsp-l-request@web.whc.net [mailto:gsp-l-request@web.whc.net] On Behalf Of Robert H Johnston
Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 4:38 PM
To: gsp-l
Subject: RE: [gsp-l] Fw: President's message current magazine

 

   Can you believe it! The President of the GSP of America actually wants the Board of Directors to promulgate the breeding of GSPs which exemplify the traits supposedly inherent in the breed, to wit: seeking, finding, pointing and retrieving game birds with style and intensity on land and in water. The NERVE of the guy. What about Frisbee chasing, hurdling, retrieving balls, excelling in couch potatoing, competing in agility tests and chasing Geckos and Flies? Lets not forget Shows where the dogs demonstrate their athleticism and physical conditioning by following at a slow trot those paragons of physical prowess, the show handlers.
   Even worse, the Prez (Dolt that he is) wants hunting desire and traits demonstrated in Field Trials just like the developers of the breed did when they brought the breed into existence. Never mind that Field trials are used by industry, science, the medical field and every agency that wants to demonstrate that their product will meet certain specifications. We know better don't we? We can tell just by looking at a dog on a leash whether it wants to hunt and can perform to a standard. What about test flights, time trials, vaccine development, science experiments, why bother, we can tell how they would turn out without physical demonstration just by thinking about it. Get real, shows are worthless for demonstrating that dogs possess the characteristics needed to be a good hunting dog, even if they are a lot of fun. The foregoing is not to say that Field trials as presently constituted could not be improved.
   Finally, there are areas of agreement, most of the guys I know in field trialing are definitely not in favor of straight fronts. Bob Johnston, Tacoma WA
 
> From: chpaisley@sbcglobal.net
> To: gsp-l@web.whc.net
> Subject: [gsp-l] Fw: President's message current magazine
> Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2009 14:46:20 -0400
>
>
> Subject: Re: President's message current magazine
>
>
> >I agree with you 110%! After years of being a member of the GSPC of Ohio as
> >well as President, Secretary, and Board member and specialty show chair for
> >10+ years, I resigned from its' membership along with many other people.
> >After trying to educate the field trialers on health clearances, ethics,
> >and proper breeding practices, I was met with "you are just against field
> >dogs" and could not in good conscience, remain involved and help make money
> >for people who have no desire to see our breed go in a positive direction
> >as far as health issues and breeding practices are concerned!
> >
> > Barb
> > http://sonnenscheinshorthairs.tripod.com/
> > Sonnenschein Shorthairs
> > "relive the past, experience the present, shape the future"
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Paul & Andrea Owens" <Unwillyn@AOL.COM>
> >> Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 1:09 PM
> > Subject: Re: President's message current magazine
> >
> >
> >> Well, this has been an "issue" for more than the President's 15 years,
> >> and more than my 35+ years in the breed. I think the "argument" will
> >> only resolve itself when field trials become obsolete, which is
> >> inevitable I too have had many people tell me that dogs they got
> >> from me were the best hunting dogs and companions they had ever owned
> >> (most were not first time GSP owners). I have never represented my dogs
> >> to be best suited for field trials, though I have bred one Dual. I have
> >> always been more concerned with soundness, temperament and type than on
> >> range in the field. My own observations over the years have led me to
> >> believe that many, but not all, field trialers were less concerned with
> >> correct conformation than the "show breeders", because their argument
> >> that form follows function leads them to believe that a dog's ability to
> >> run for an hour in the desert, with a scout on horseback or a tracking
> >> collar necessary to locate them, indicates soundness and desire. Some
> >> of the photos I've seen of field dogs were arguably some of the
> >> straightest, most undersized, undernourished and questionably purebred
> >> dogs I've ever seen, with bad bites and very short lived. I have always
> >> had trouble understanding the usefulness of dogs needing to cover so
> >> much ground for the modern hunter and was always dismayed that the Gun
> >> Dogs seemed to be just All Age dogs that didn't make it. I also hate
> >> meeting people who comment that they once owned one, but the breed was
> >> too hyper for them to live with. The wonderful thing about our breed
> >> though is its versatility. We may not all want to play the same game,
> >> but the breed is capable of satisfying all of our interests and the dogs
> >> can bring us together with a wonderful variety of people. I have
> >> dedicated myself to perpetuating a breed that is loved and cherished and
> >> appreciated by the people who own them. Many of the showdogs are
> >> lacking in fronts, some are not in good hard condition, and many have no
> >> hunting skills because they've never even been exposed to birds (but
> >> will hunt anything including lizards and flies). Many of their owners
> >> are severely restricted by their limited access to suitable grounds
> >> and/or equipment to work their dogs. But, overall, I think the show
> >> people I am acquainted with make more of an effort to breed healthy,
> >> sound, calm dogs that are easy and enjoyable to live with, and versatile
> >> enough to satisfy a larger proportion of the population than the more
> >> "specialized" field dogs. Breeding is an art and takes true dedication
> >> of time, money and spirit, and the willingness to accept continued
> >> responsibility for the dogs we breed. While I don't concern myself with
> >> people who are breeding for a different outcome, I do note that many of
> >> the most influential dogs in the history of the breed, including the
> >> field, more closely resembled the current dogs in the show ring than
> >> those in the field. There are some dedicated breeders out there (like
> >> the Chandlers) who are dedicated to producing excellent examples of dual
> >> champions. Unfortunately, many of us cannot afford the time or cost to
> >> participate in all areas of performance so we concentrate on the
> >> particular activities that we are most likely to excel at. This does
> >> not mean the dogs are any less true to type or ability. Our success in
> >> our endeavors and the feedback from our buyers and our peers are the
> >> only measurement we have of our efforts.
> >>
> >> Judges education, breeder education and ethics, and maintaining the
> >> right to keep our animals, as well as making performance events
> >> available to measure our outcomes, are the direction that the Board
> >> needs to concern itself with most. Otherwise, the cream will rise to
> >> the top and those who do not find it rewarding in our breed will switch
> >> to another.
> >>
> >> Amen
> >>
> >> Andi Owens
> >> Unwillyn GSPs
> >>
> >> On Aug 3, 2009, at 9:03 AM, bleugrasgsp@aol.com wrote:
> >>
> >>> Letter to the Editor:
> >>> I find it distressing to read the President's comment in the Journal
> >>> July/August 2009, that he feels the showdogs are "...oversized with
> >>> straight fronts, lacking condition and most were having problems with
> >>> hunting and scenting skills"!! and "In my fifteen years we have done
> >>> nothing to solve this problem"!!
> >>>
> >>> I beg to differ with that assumption of the Pres. and am willing to
> >>> supply much proof that the "show dogs" are wonderful hunters and their
> >>> "scenting skills" are not lost!! This morning, in fact, I received an
> >>> e-mail stating , "she is the most intense hunter", about a "showdog"
> >>> bought from me several years ago...and I have many many more e-mails
> >>> and letters declaring the same!
> >>>
> >>> President Blackbourn states, "..it is still my firm belief that the
> >>> direction of the Breed both in conformation and athletic performance
> >>> should be directed by the Board." I am not sure of what that means nor
> >>> infers, but I would suspect that many longtime breeders feel that the
> >>> "direction" of the breed lay in THEIR hands, not in the hands of the
> >>> "Board".
> >>>
> >>> Perhaps further clarification and explanation of these statements could
> >>> be elaborated upon.
> >>>
> >>> Eve Parsons
> >>> Bleugras
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> **************
> >>> A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps!
> >>> (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222846709x1201493018/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx
> >>> ?sc=668072&hmpgID=115&bcd=JulystepsfooterNO115)
> >>
> >> **********************************************************************
> >>
> >> >
>

---

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---

Get free photo software from Windows Live N:WL:en-US:SI_PH_software:082009" target=_blank>Click here. =

So my question is what good is a dog that might be the perfect example of the breed but couldnt find a bird if it hit them in the face?

But also bob please explain how a field trial evaluates what the GSP was originally brought over here for to be a versatile dog.


Adam

Allirun Shorthairs-
Home of the Highest Ranked GSP in breed history with a MH title
Group Winning,Multiple Group Placing,
BISS CH Honey Run's Spittin' Image MH NAII CGC



--- On Fri, 8/7/09, askmegsp@aol.com  wrote:

  

From: askmegsp@aol.com 
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Fw: President's message current magazine
To: gsp-l@web.whc.net
Date: Friday, August 7, 2009, 1:37 PM



Still, the evaluation of instinctive traits of
hunting dogs should be done in field trials, where the
rubber hits the road, rather than by visual observation in a
dog show.I don't think anyone is trying to
evaluate hunting instinct at dog shows, rather evaluate the
similarity of the exhibits to the breed standard. Proper
conformation enhances  the dogs ability  to
perform the tasks for which he is bred. 



Ann King-Wallace



-----Original Message-----

From: Robert H Johnston 

To: gsp-l 

Sent: Fri, Aug 7, 2009 2:06 pm

Subject: RE: [gsp-l] Fw: President's message current
magazine






#yiv1864243102
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I won't argue with that. I've written many posts
about the falsification of breeding records and the damage
they have done to the breed. I do not defend crossbreeding
and I know it is common in the field trial game. Over
the years with the introduction of horseback handling and
especially gaited horses, extended range has been emphasized
to the point where finding a good hunting dog that will hunt
for a foot hunter from field trial stock can be a problem.
I'm hoping that DNA testing and the burgeoning
popularity of walking field trials will bring the Shorthair
back to a quality gundog capable of being hunted over
and handled by a foot hunter. Still, the evaluation of
instinctive traits of hunting dogs should be done in field
trials, where the rubber hits the road, rather than by
visual observation in a dog show. The fact that
some show dogs are good hunting dogs is due to the
traits instilled by the creators of the breed which have
been genetically handed!
   down and the fact that some people work hard to show dogs
that they know are good trial dogs, the Dual dog people.
Unfortunately there aren't that many of them. Sincerely,
Bob Johnston

 



To: gsp-l@web.whc.net

Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Fw: President's message current
magazine

Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2009 09:26:04 -0400

From: nmk1gsp@aol.com



While I agree that GSP style, stamina and desire seem to
get lost in some breeding programs along with natural
hunting & retrieving ability, I just wonder if Cal and
Bob would like to guess what the percent of PUREBRED
GSP's are currently running in AKC Field Trials.  I
am not convinced that the HUGE influx of Pointer DNA in
field trial pedigrees over the years has helped
the GSP breed either.  A huge percent of my puppy
buyers either want a dog to hunt with and or compete with at
least at Hunt Test level.  And every puppy buyer wants
GSP temperament...not what is behind curtain #2. Our rescue
is swamped with cross breeds that unsuspecting folks
purchased expecting GSP type & temperament and could not
live with because they are NOT purebred GSP's. It does
not matter how great a bird dog it is if you can not live
with it!!!!!!!

Not breeding for what our forefathers in this breed
invisioned is a huge mistake for all concerned...and there
is more than enough blame on both sides of the isle for
straying from what was intended to be a medium sized,
powerfully built, medium range gun dog.  Here's my
point...ANY BREEDER not striving to create a GSP
that is purebred and with solid natural hunting ability
is NOT doing any of us a favor or our Breed.

Carol Chadwick

15 Duals and counting

Northwood Mountain Kennels



-----Original Message-----

From: Cal Palmer 

To: gsp-l@web.whc.net

Sent: Fri, Aug 7, 2009 3:22 am

Subject: RE: [gsp-l] Fw: President's message current
magazine






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Well
pointed, Bob.  The preceding posts point out an
unfortunate fact these days that so many breeders of GSPs
are not hunters themselves, and instead rely on anecdotal
feedback from their buyers (many of whom also are probably
not hunters either) for evidence that their pups are the
best hunting dogs they have ever owned. 



 









From: gsp-l-request@web.whc.net
[mailto:gsp-l-request@web.whc.net]
On Behalf Of
Robert H Johnston

Sent:
Thursday, August 06, 2009 4:38 PM

To: gsp-l

Subject: RE:
[gsp-l] Fw: President's message current
magazine



 


   Can
you believe it! The President of the GSP of America actually
wants the Board of Directors to promulgate the breeding of
GSPs which exemplify the traits
supposedly inherent in the breed, to wit: seeking,
finding, pointing and retrieving game birds with style and
intensity on land and in water. The NERVE of the guy. What
about Frisbee chasing, hurdling, retrieving balls, excelling
in couch potatoing, competing in agility tests and chasing
Geckos and Flies? Lets not forget Shows where the dogs
demonstrate their athleticism and physical conditioning by
following at a slow trot those paragons of physical prowess,
the show handlers.

   Even worse, the Prez (Dolt that he is) wants
hunting desire and traits demonstrated in Field Trials just
like the developers of the breed did when they brought the
breed into existence. Never mind that Field trials are used
by industry, science, the medical field and every agency
that wants to demonstrate that their product
will meet certain specifications. We know better don't
we? We can tell just by looking at a dog on a leash whether
it wants to hunt and can perform to a standard. What
about test flights, time trials, vaccine development,
science experiments, why bother, we can tell how they would
turn out without physical demonstration just by thinking
about it. Get real, shows are worthless for demonstrating
that dogs possess the characteristics needed to be a good
hunting dog, even if they are a lot of fun. The
foregoing is not to say that Field trials as presently
constituted could not be improved.

   Finally, there are areas of agreement, most of
the guys I know in field trialing are definitely not in
favor of straight fronts. Bob Johnston, Tacoma WA

 

    

From: chpaisley@sbcglobal.net
      

To: gsp-l@web.whc.net
      

Subject: [gsp-l] Fw: President's message current
      

magazine

    

Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2009 14:46:20 -0400
      

Subject: Re: President's message current magazine
      

I agree with you 110%! After years of being a
        

member of the GSPC of Ohio as 

    

well as President, Secretary, and Board member and
        

specialty show chair for 

    

10+ years, I resigned from its' membership
        

along with many other people. 

    

After trying to educate the field trialers on
        

health clearances, ethics, 

    

and proper breeding practices, I was met with
        

"you are just against field 

    

dogs" and could not in good conscience,
        

remain involved and help make money 

    

for people who have no desire to see our breed go
        

in a positive direction 

    

as far as health issues and breeding practices are
        

concerned!

    

Barb
        

http://sonnenscheinshorthairs.tripod.com/
        

Sonnenschein Shorthairs
        

"relive the past, experience the present,
        

shape the future"

    

----- Original Message ----- 
        

From: "Paul & Andrea Owens" 
        

Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 1:09 PM
          

Subject: Re: President's message current
        

magazine

    

Well, this has been an "issue" for
          

more than the President's 15 years, 

    

and more than my 35+ years in the breed. I
          

think the "argument" will 

    

only resolve itself when field trials become
          

obsolete, which is 

    

inevitable  I too have had many people tell
          

me that dogs they got 

    

from me were the best hunting dogs and
          

companions they had ever owned 

    

(most were not first time GSP owners). I have
          

never represented my dogs 

    

to be best suited for field trials, though I
          

have bred one Dual. I have 

    

always been more concerned with soundness,
          

temperament and type than on 

    

range in the field. My own observations over
          

the years have led me to 

    

believe that many, but not all, field
          

trialers were less concerned with 

    

correct conformation than the "show
          

breeders", because their argument 

    

that form follows function leads them to
          

believe that a dog's ability to 

    

run for an hour in the desert, with a scout
          

on horseback or a tracking 

    

collar necessary to locate them, indicates
          

soundness and desire. Some 

    

of the photos I've seen of field dogs
          

were arguably some of the 

    

straightest, most undersized, undernourished
          

and questionably purebred 

    

dogs I've ever seen, with bad bites and
          

very short lived. I have always 

    

had trouble understanding the usefulness of
          

dogs needing to cover so 

    

much ground for the modern hunter and was
          

always dismayed that the Gun 

    

Dogs seemed to be just All Age dogs that
          

didn't make it. I also hate 

    

meeting people who comment that they once
          

owned one, but the breed was 

    

too hyper for them to live with. The
          

wonderful thing about our breed 

    

though is its versatility. We may not all
          

want to play the same game, 

    

but the breed is capable of satisfying all of
          

our interests and the dogs 

    

can bring us together with a wonderful
          

variety of people. I have 

    

dedicated myself to perpetuating a breed that
          

is loved and cherished and 

    

appreciated by the people who own them. Many
          

of the showdogs are 

    

lacking in fronts, some are not in good hard
          

condition, and many have no 

    

hunting skills because they've never even
          

been exposed to birds (but 

    

will hunt anything including lizards and
          

flies). Many of their owners 

    

are severely restricted by their limited
          

access to suitable grounds 

    

and/or equipment to work their dogs. But,
          

overall, I think the show 

    

people I am acquainted with make more of an
          

effort to breed healthy, 

    

sound, calm dogs that are easy and enjoyable
          

to live with, and versatile 

    

enough to satisfy a larger proportion of the
          

population than the more 

    

"specialized" field dogs. Breeding
          

is an art and takes true dedication 

    

of time, money and spirit, and the
          

willingness to accept continued 

    

responsibility for the dogs we breed. While I
          

don't concern myself with 

    

people who are breeding for a different
          

outcome, I do note that many of 

    

the most influential dogs in the history of
          

the breed, including the 

    

field, more closely resembled the current
          

dogs in the show ring than 

    

those in the field. There are some dedicated
          

breeders out there (like 

    

the Chandlers) who are dedicated to producing
          

excellent examples of dual 

    

champions. Unfortunately, many of us cannot
          

afford the time or cost to 

    

participate in all areas of performance so we
          

concentrate on the 

    

particular activities that we are most likely
          

to excel at. This does 

    

not mean the dogs are any less true to type
          

or ability. Our success in 

    

our endeavors and the feedback from our
          

buyers and our peers are the 

    

only measurement we have of our efforts.
          

Judges education, breeder education and
          

ethics, and maintaining the 

    

right to keep our animals, as well as making
          

performance events 

    

available to measure our outcomes, are the
          

direction that the Board 

    

needs to concern itself with most. Otherwise,
          

the cream will rise to 

    

the top and those who do not find it
          

rewarding in our breed will switch 

    

to another.
          

Amen
          

Andi Owens
          

Unwillyn GSPs
          

On Aug 3, 2009, at 9:03 AM, bleugrasgsp@aol.com
          

wrote:

    

Letter to the Editor:
            

I find it distressing to read the
            

President's comment in the Journal 

    

July/August 2009, that he feels the
            

showdogs are "...oversized with 

    

straight fronts, lacking condition and
            

most were having problems with 

    

hunting and scenting skills"!! and
            

"In my fifteen years we have done 

    

nothing to solve this problem"!!
            

I beg to differ with that assumption of
            

the Pres. and am willing to 

    

supply much proof that the "show
            

dogs" are wonderful hunters and their 

    

"scenting skills" are not
            

lost!! This morning, in fact, I received an 

    

e-mail stating , "she is the most
            

intense hunter", about a "showdog" 

    

bought from me several years ago...and I
            

have many many more e-mails 

    

and letters declaring the same!
            

President Blackbourn states, "..it
            

is still my firm belief that the 

    

direction of the Breed both in
            

conformation and athletic performance 

    

should be directed by the Board." I
            

am not sure of what that means nor 

    

infers, but I would suspect that many
            

longtime breeders feel that the 

    

"direction" of the breed lay in
            

THEIR hands, not in the hands of the 

    

"Board".
            

Perhaps further clarification and
            

explanation of these statements could 

    

be elaborated upon.
            

Eve Parsons
            

Bleugras
            

**************
            

A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See
            

yours in just 2 easy steps! 

    

(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222846709x1201493018/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx
            

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Pam Parshall wrote:

"Germany doesn't have high deserts where the hunters can send their dogs into the next county, while their handlers ride horseback over the countryside looking for them.  If you want a big running dog get an English pointer!"

Ironically Pam, England doesn't have high deserts where handlers ride after birddogs either!!!

I find it rather bizarre how much GSP folks blabber on about how we've made the breed different from the dogs of "the old country" and then suggest that others in the breed would be better off with English Pointers; a breed that here is radically different than the Pointers of "the old country".  It's the height of hypocrisy.

JMO,

Dave

Pam Parshall wrote:

 

"Germany doesn't have high deserts where the hunters can send their dogs into the next county, while their handlers ride horseback over the countryside looking for them.  If you want a big running dog get an English pointer!"

 

Ironically Pam, England doesn't have high deserts where handlers ride after birddogs either!!!

 

I find it rather bizarre how much GSP folks blabber on about how we've made the breed different from the dogs of "the old country" and then suggest that others in the breed would be better off with English Pointers; a breed that here is radically different than the Pointers of "the old country".  It's the height of hypocrisy.

 

JMO,

Dave

 

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Pam Parshall wrote:

"I agree that they are radically different, but that is because of what breeders in this country did to them, not what the English did. (Think American Field.)  "

Pam,

If you were to spend 6 months hunting across the country; starting in Montana in Sept for sharpies, working your way south, east and west, hunting the grouse woods of WI and the piney woods of the southeastern bobwhite and the CRP fields of Kansas and ending up in AZ for scalies, would you be better off with a Pointer bred from American lines or a Pointer imported from England? 

What "breeders in this country did to them" is EXACTLY what breeders of working dogs SHOULD do; change the dog to fit the needs of the sportsman.   Seems perfectly logical to me.

JMO,

Dave

Well perhaps that means that pointers as well as GSP have been radically changed for field performance here than they were meant to be in the 'Old Country" There is probably a host of other breeds that fit this bill as well.  Sometimes change is not for the better and goes further than intended.  Sometimes it is wise to admit that mistakes may have been made and then try to fix them instead of rationalizing them.  It doesn't take a whole lot of thought to see the differences in breed type between what the general population calls show stock and field stock. My personal opinion is the show stock shows much more resemblance to their ancestry and just because GSP's were bred for hunting does not mean they cannot compete in breed,agility,obedience as well.  All of todays breeds were started with a specific reason or focus but society has advanced (thank goodness we no longer live in caves) and some of those requirements are no longer in existance.  Does that mean we should stop breeding Dobermans, Rotties, herding dogs and yes hunting dogs?  No!!!! That means we as breeders can just accomplish other things with our dogs while still trying to preserve breed type.

Vicki Eells
stormwynd

Cathy Iacopelli wrote:

"Are you saying that the founders of the two breeds (English Pointer and the German Shorthaired Pointer) bred them to hunt the same way?  Because one of the most important words in our standard "versatile" does not appear anywhere in the Pointer standard.  They are specialists.  Or are you saying we have not changed the hunting/running style of what it was when the breed came to this country?"

No, I am saying it's hypocritical to tell someone if they want a dog to hunt in a manner different from the way we think GSPs hunted in Europe decades ago they should buy a Pointer, which is also a breed in the US that's radically different from the original dog from England. 

Apparently it's OK that the Pointer has evolved but not ok that the GSP has evolved?  The Labrador Retriever is the most used hunting dog in the US, yet that's a breed that was developed not as a sporting dog but a working dog.  Somehow that's not a problem but hunting a GSP off of horseback or wheeler or truck in the desert or the mesquite of south Texas is some horrible bastardization of the use of the breed?

Our perceptions of how dogs are hunted in Europe, both today and when these breeds were developed, is so far from accurate it's not even funny.  If you only hunt your dogs on upland game here in the US, you are using your dog in a RADICALLY different manner than the average GSP in Germany.  Upland bird hunting is not, and has never been, the primary use of the GSP in Germany.  The average GSP in Germany is used for game other than upland birds far more than on upland birds; in fact a rather healthy % of GSPs in Germany will be hunted over 50 days a year, and never see a upland bird!

This concept of the "close working, easy going GSP in Germany" is a bunch of B.S.  They breed those dogs to have the heart and desire to chase down wounded big game and to corner and pin wild hogs 4 times their size!  Give me a dog with that much raw desire, and I can show you a dog that's going to RIP IT UP in the field. The hunting style of the German hunter is such where they desire a dog under control when used as a birddog in the field.  That windshield wiper pattern that the Germans want their dogs to run when hunted in those beet fields is more training than breeding.  The concept of the “close working European hunting dog” is pretty absurd considering their walking trials look for dogs to make casts up to 500 meters.  In many of the European walking trials, those dogs run bigger than what would be acceptable in American walking trials.

I've seen registered DKs, imported from Germany, who had enough run for horseback trials without any training or development!  Let me pick 20 registered DKs from Germany, and I'll get you dogs running All Age, and producing All Age prospects, in under 3 generations.  Having said that, I have no interest in doing so because I don't want to deal with the personality, temperament and trainability issues that come along with those imports.

JMO,

Dave