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CathyYak
MH
Posts:963
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| 05/12/2009 10:50 AM |
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In other words,
I have not seen any black GSP's that would "add" quality to what we now have in the sport.
OK, to clarify, removing black as a DQ in the breed standard would not change one thing about field trials and black GSPs. Black GSPs are obviously already allowed to FT, and there are some competing under you in your area. I bet there are more up here in the northeast. I know of six just here on LI, which is a small place. They belong to several different people who are primarily involved with Navhda, though they do dabble in HT's.
Again, it would only be the show ring that would be affected. Your post specifically addresses black and white GSPs in FTs, and what you see at field trials would have no bearing on what happens in the show ring, unless those few dogs you have seen are destined for the show ring if the standard changes. I would guess that most of the dogs you see at FTs are not destined for the show ring. At least not anywhere near a majority.
I just had the pleasure of judging a lovely black and white bitch in MH last month. She is both beautiful and a great working dog. A black and white GSP just went Group two at a local match this past weekend. Not sure how the judges involved didn't know he should not be there, but the owner was delighted. He didn't get the dog to show, but he would sure like a chance at it now.
And the dog is gorgeous, and very handsome male, who is also a stylish broke hunting dog/Navhda prize I. personally I think that such a dog would be a wonderful addition to our show rings.
There is also a solid black GSP on the island. And he is stunning. I haven't seen him in a few years, but he made quite an impression on me. The heads on these two males are gorgeous, though I don't think they are related in at least the last three generations.
Cathy
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Cathy Iacopelli
Claddagh Kennels
Long Island, New York |
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tc
MH
Posts:117
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| 05/12/2009 10:59 AM |
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Thank you Dave,
I will correct myself. The majority of 66% that is needed
to change our standard.
Terry
Terry and Janet Chandler
Rugerheim Kennels
German Shorthaired Pointers
Training/Puppies/Stud
Service
Las Cruces, NM
575-382-5231
rugerheim.com
Terry – I certainly
respect your opinion and you make excellent points (as you normally do), but I
do want to correct something. To your comment below, the majority of our
membership did vote to change the standard – to be precise – a reported 60% on
this vote. A “super majority” (e.g. two thirds) did not. The
majority of the voting membership in the GSPCA support a change to allow black
in our standard and have so for at least a decade. Those against adding
black into the standard are in the minority of the voting
membership.
Dave
David
Nauer
VoyagerGSPs
>>>
I don't get it . .
.
>>>
The proponents
of black GSP's have to come up with something better than this to
encourage the majority of our membership to vote for a
standard change
IMO.
>>>
tc
>>>
Terry and Janet
Chandler
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Tracy Novoa
Western NY
MH
Posts:191
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| 05/12/2009 11:40 AM |
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As a field trial judge it does not matter to me what color the dog is, I am judging how they
perform.
Interesting point. The CH then has much more merit going towards compliance to the standard than the FC. There is no balance here or keeping the integrity of the breed. So then, that AKC registered GSP that looked like a docked yellow lab is capable of becoming a pointing breed Field Champion.
That being said, why do trialers even care if black GSPs enter the show ring???
Tracy
-----Original Message-----
From: Rugerheim
To: gsp-l@web.whc.net
Sent: Tue, 12 May 2009 12:09 pm
Subject: RE: [gsp-l] Back on topic
Hello Tracy,
In field trials the dogs are not judged against a conformation standard they are judged on their performance. As a field trial judge it does not matter to me what color the dog is, I am judging how they
perform. I cannot speak for other judges but I am fairly certain that the majority of field trial judges have the same perspective as I do. Most of our trials are open to all breeds so we see dogs of every
shape size and color. In saying that I do not think that black GSP's would be discriminated against. I have seen a few blacks competing in field trials. None of them have been "Great". In other words,
I have not seen any black GSP's that would "add" quality to what we now have in the sport.
Terry
>> Terry,
I'm just curious about something. I know you field trial and I've never got involved in that venue. I do hunt tests and NAVHDA, where I know there are some quality black GSPs who have relative dogs to my own l/w GSPs.
At a trial, if a black GSP comes up to the line, does it stand a fair chance against a "non-black" bracemate? Do fellow trialers frown upon this dog?
I don't understand since both FC and CH are titles obtained by competing and winning in AKC how a dog can be allowed in one area and not the other. That's why I'm very curious as to how these dogs are perceived if they show up at a trial.
Seriously, can you paint me a picture?
Tracy Novoa <<
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Enjoy them every minute you have them!
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CathyYak
MH
Posts:963
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| 05/12/2009 11:49 AM |
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That being said, why do trialers even care if black GSPs enter the show ring???
Maybe like another poster here they believe that changing the standard will somehow out the GSP's with a dab of another breed included?
Cathy
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Cathy Iacopelli
Claddagh Kennels
Long Island, New York |
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invernessgsp
MH
Posts:91
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| 05/12/2009 12:16 PM |
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And no mention has been made of the black OTCh GSP...with the small percentage of OTCh GSPs, it would be interesting to note the percentage of black to those totals.
Dorothy H. Thompson
From: "cathyyak@aol.com"
To: gsp-l@web.whc.net
Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2009 12:36:11 PM
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Back on topic
In other words,
I have not seen any black GSP's that would "add" quality to what we now have in the sport. OK, to clarify, removing black as a DQ in the breed standard would not change one thing about field trials and black GSPs. Black GSPs are obviously already allowed to FT, and there are some competing under you in your area. I bet there are more up here in the northeast. I know of six just here on LI, which is a small place. They belong to several different people who are primarily involved with Navhda, though they do dabble in HT's. Again, it would only be the show ring that would be affected. Your post specifically addresses black and white GSPs in FTs, and what you see at field trials would have no bearing on
what happens in the show ring, unless those few dogs you have seen are destined for the show ring if the standard changes. I would guess that most of the dogs you see at FTs are not destined for the show ring. At least not anywhere near a majority. I just had the pleasure of judging a lovely black and white bitch in MH last month. She is both beautiful and a great working dog. A black and white GSP just went Group two at a local match this past weekend. Not sure how the judges involved didn't know he should not be there, but the owner was delighted. He didn't get the dog to show, but he would sure like a chance at it now. And the dog is gorgeous, and very handsome male, who is also a stylish broke hunting dog/Navhda prize I. personally I think that such a dog would be a wonderful addition to our show rings. There is also a solid black GSP on the island. And he is stunning.
I haven't seen him in a few years, but he made quite an impression on me. The heads on these two males are gorgeous, though I don't think they are related in at least the last three generations. Cathy
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tc
MH
Posts:117
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| 05/12/2009 12:43 PM |
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My family competes in both arenas, the conformation
ring and field trials. IMO they both have merit. The conformation ring has no
"compliance" to a performance standard.
Dogs are judged strictly on how they look. The field
has a performance standard, therefore dogs are judged on how they perform. That
is why we breed for Dual Champions,
that is how "we" keep balance and the integrity of the
breed (as you put it).
As far as field trialers caring why black dogs enter
the show ring, I don't know that they do. I cannot speak for
them.
As a field trial judge I have rules and performance
standards that I judge by, depending on whether it is an AKC event or an
American Field event. No where in those rules does
it state how a dog should look. Likewise with
conformation judges on a performance standard.
I would like nothing more than to have all field trial
dogs be required to meet a basic breed standard evaluation to become a
FC. Likewise I would like for all bench champions
to have to meet a basic field test to become Bench
Champions. But that will happen when pigs fly . And, that is a whole
new topic. . .
tc
As a
field trial judge it does not matter to me what color the dog is, I am judging
how they
perform. >> Interesting point. The CH then
has much more merit going towards compliance to the standard than the
FC. There is no balance here or keeping the integrity of the breed.
So then, that AKC registered GSP that looked like a docked yellow lab is capable
of becoming a pointing breed Field Champion.
That being said, why do
trialers even care if black GSPs enter the show ring???
Tracy <<
-----Original
Message-----
From: Rugerheim
To:
gsp-l@web.whc.net
Sent: Tue, 12 May 2009 12:09 pm
Subject: RE: [gsp-l]
Back on topic
Hello Tracy,
In
field trials the dogs are not judged against a conformation standard they are
judged on their performance. As a field trial judge it does not matter to me what color the dog is, I
am judging how they
perform. I cannot speak for other judges but I am fairly certain that the
majority of field trial judges have the same perspective as I do. Most
of our trials are open to all breeds so we see dogs of every
shape
size and color. In saying that I do not think that black GSP's would
be discriminated against. I have seen a few blacks competing in field trials.
None of them have been "Great". In other words,
I have
not seen any black GSP's that would "add" quality to what we now
have in the sport.
Terry
>> Terry,
I'm just
curious about something. I know you field trial and I've never got
involved in that venue. I do hunt tests and NAVHDA, where I know
there are some quality black GSPs who have relative dogs to my own l/w
GSPs.
At a trial, if a black GSP comes up to the line, does it stand a
fair chance against a "non-black" bracemate? Do fellow trialers frown upon
this dog?
I don't understand since both FC and CH are titles
obtained by competing and winning in AKC how a dog can be allowed in one area
and not the other. That's why I'm very curious as to how these dogs are
perceived if they show up at a trial.
Seriously, can you paint me a
picture?
Tracy Novoa <<
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mountaindogs
MH
Posts:128
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| 05/12/2009 1:12 PM |
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Pigs fly? Did you here about the swine "flew" 
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Tracy Novoa
Western NY
MH
Posts:191
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| 05/12/2009 1:20 PM |
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I would like nothing more than to have all field trial dogs be required to meet a basic breed standard evaluation to become a FC. Likewise I would like for all bench champions
to have to meet a basic field test to become Bench Champions.
I agree with you 100%!!!
Tracy
Proud to have both Performance and Bench CH GSPs!
-----Original Message-----
From: Rugerheim
To: gsp-l@web.whc.net
Sent: Tue, 12 May 2009 2:29 pm
Subject: RE: [gsp-l] Back on topic
My family competes in both arenas, the conformation ring and field trials. IMO they both have merit. The conformation ring has no "compliance" to a performance standard.
Dogs are judged strictly on how they look. The field has a performance standard, therefore dogs are judged on how they perform. That is why we breed for Dual Champions,
that is how "we" keep balance and the integrity of the breed (as you put it).
As far as field trialers caring why black dogs enter the show ring, I don't know that they do. I cannot speak for them.
As a field trial judge I have rules and performance standards that I judge by, depending on whether it is an AKC event or an American Field event. No where in those rules does
it state how a dog should look. Likewise with conformation judges on a performance standard.
I would like nothing more than to have all field trial dogs be required to meet a basic breed standard evaluation to become a FC. Likewise I would like for all bench champions
to have to meet a basic field test to become Bench Champions. But that will happen when pigs fly . And, that is a whole new topic. . .
tc
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Enjoy them every minute you have them!
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gsp4k9snme
SH
Posts:46
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| 05/12/2009 5:57 PM |
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Honestly I would like to thank everyone about the education I am recieving on gsp's during this discussion. It is giving me a better understanding about everyones position and views which I find are all legitimate. I personally feel this gsp list conducts themselves very well and even though there can be disagreements of opinion, every seems to be a big enough person to take it and stride and try to see things from all angles. Much better then some other lists I have been on where people get offended and unsubscribe. It is always nice to see a good debate with well informed people! Kudos to you all!
Tracey L. Weber
From: Rugerheim
To: gsp-l@web.whc.net
Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2009 12:09:52 PM
Subject: RE: [gsp-l] Back on topic
Hello Tracy,
In field trials the dogs are not judged against a conformation standard they are judged on their performance. As a field trial judge it does not matter to me what color the dog is, I am judging how they
perform. I cannot speak for other judges but I am fairly certain that the majority of field trial judges have the same perspective as I do. Most of our trials are open to all breeds so we see dogs of every
shape size and color. In saying that I do not think that black GSP's would be discriminated against. I have seen a few blacks competing in field trials. None of them have been "Great". In other words,
I have not seen any black GSP's that would "add" quality to what we now have in the sport.
Terry
>> Terry,
I'm just curious about something. I know you field trial and I've never got involved in that venue. I do hunt tests and NAVHDA, where I know there are some quality black GSPs who have relative dogs to my own l/w GSPs.
At a trial, if a black GSP comes up to the line, does it stand a fair chance against a "non-black" bracemate? Do fellow trialers frown upon this dog?
I don't understand since both FC and CH are titles obtained by competing and winning in AKC how a dog can be allowed in one area and not the other. That's why I'm very curious as to how these dogs are perceived if they show up at a trial.
Seriously, can you paint me a picture?
Tracy Novoa <<
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