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CathyYak
MH
Posts:963
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| 05/11/2009 4:30 PM |
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In a message dated 5/11/2009 5:01:56 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
terry85021@yahoo.com writes:
Absolutely correct, if fact as we Americans have deviated so much from
the original German form and function maybe we should consider renaming the
breed "American Shorthaired Pointer" which is mostly based on the German
Shorthaired Pointer as the German Shorthaired pointer was based on the Spanish
Pointer.
Terry
So back on topic. I am still hoping someone can let me know the error
of my thinking that it is ridiculous to allow liver and white GSP's in
the show ring but not black and white parents, siblings or offspring. I
would like to understand how that benefits our breed.
If you would like to start a new breed Terry, I am sure you can get a
head start using the crossbred pointers alluded to here  ~. That's
a joke too.
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Cathy Iacopelli
Claddagh Kennels
Long Island, New York |
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Dave Quindt
SH
Posts:41
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| 05/11/2009 4:55 PM |
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OK Cathy - I'll play along,
We have the most numerous, diverse and vibrant population of GSPs in the world. While we retained segments of the breed which are very consistent with original intent of the breed in northern Europe, a great deal of natural evolution has occurred and the breed has been stretched to meet the needs of sportsmen not just of northern Europe, but of a continent so diverse in it's habitat and terrain to be almost inconceivable to the original breed fathers. The GSP is the most popular continental breed in the US; something it has never accomplished in Germany.
We have done so without the use of black GSPs; the handful of black dogs in the US over the decades is statistically immaterial.
So what's the breed going to gain by allowing black dogs in the ring that it does not have today?
JMO,
Dave
From: CathyYak@aol.com
Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 18:15:51 -0400
Subject: [gsp-l] Back on topic
To: gsp-l@web.whc.net
So back on topic. I am still hoping someone can let me know the error of my thinking that it is ridiculous to allow liver and white GSP's in the show ring but not black and white parents, siblings or offspring. I would like to understand how that benefits our breed.
If you would like to start a new breed Terry, I am sure you can get a head start using the crossbred pointers alluded to here ~. That's a joke too.
Cathy Iacopelli
Hotmail® has a new way to see what's up with your friends. Check it out.
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karen_conrey
JH
Posts:21
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| 05/11/2009 5:14 PM |
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Just for one point on the gene pool.... ever look at what was behind some of the "great" sires? You might be surprised that there are some nice "black" dogs in there.
Maybe if the black were allowed in the breed ring then people might not breed themselves into some of the corners they are in now or to bring forward some attributes that we all do want in our dogs... such as great noses for game. There are many that will not breed to black because they do not want to risk the chance that the "pick" of the litter will be black and no good for their limited breeding progam which is mostly for the breed ring. Debbie Koberlein (Wind River) has bred some dogs that I personally think are hard to beat by anyone for the quality of their work ethic, hunting ability, style on point and overall temperment. Yes... there are a few others that are doing it with liver colored... but it is rare... So the gain... same reason black was brought into the breeding program almost 100 years ago... to improve the quality of the breed! --- On Mon, 5/11/09, Dave Quindt wrote: From: Dave Quindt
Subject: RE: [gsp-l] Back on topic
To: gsp-l@web.whc.net
Date: Monday, May 11, 2009, 6:40 PM
OK Cathy - I'll play along,
We have the most numerous, diverse and vibrant population of GSPs in the world. While we retained segments of the breed which are very consistent with original intent of the breed in northern Europe, a great deal of natural evolution has occurred and the breed has been stretched to meet the needs of sportsmen not just of northern Europe, but of a continent so diverse in it's habitat and terrain to be almost inconceivable to the original breed fathers. The GSP is the most popular continental breed in the US; something it has never accomplished in Germany.
We have done so without the use of black GSPs; the handful of black dogs in the US over the decades is statistically immaterial.
So what's the breed going to gain by allowing black dogs in the ring that it does not have today?
JMO,
Dave
From: CathyYak@aol.com
Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 18:15:51 -0400
Subject: [gsp-l] Back on topic
To: gsp-l@web.whc.net
So back on topic. I am still hoping someone can let me know the error of my thinking that it is ridiculous to allow liver and white GSP's in the show ring but not black and white parents, siblings or offspring. I would like to understand how that benefits our breed.
If you would like to start a new breed Terry, I am sure you can get a head start using the crossbred pointers alluded to here ~. That's a joke too.
Cathy Iacopelli
Hotmail® has a new way to see what's up with your friends. Check it out. |
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tc
MH
Posts:117
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| 05/11/2009 7:11 PM |
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O K
Karen, educate me. What great sires in our breed have black behind
them?
tc
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>> Just for one point on the gene
pool.... ever look at what was behind some of the "great" sires? You might
be surprised that there are some nice "black" dogs in there.
Karen
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karen_conrey
JH
Posts:21
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| 05/11/2009 7:13 PM |
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I believe all should look to Zobel and see what is back there... Karen
--- On Mon, 5/11/09, Rugerheim wrote:
From: Rugerheim
Subject: RE: [gsp-l] Back on topic
To: gsp-l@web.whc.net
Date: Monday, May 11, 2009, 8:55 PM
O K Karen, educate me. What great sires in our breed have black behind them?
tc
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>> Just for one point on the gene pool.... ever look at what was behind some of the "great" sires? You might be surprised that there are some nice "black" dogs in there.
Karen
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tc
MH
Posts:117
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| 05/11/2009 7:21 PM |
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So let me get this
straight. There are people out there that own black GSPs. People who have bred
to blacks and have some puppies that
are black, and some that
are liver in the same litter. Therefore, all of "us" GSPCA members should
vote for a standard change to allow black.
These folks knew going in
that they could not show black GSP's, they knew that it was not allowed in the
breed standard. But,
they bought black dogs,
or bred to black dogs, and they now want us to change the standard because of
this decision that "they" made?
I don't get it . .
.
The proponents
of black GSP's have to come up with something better than this to
encourage the majority of our membership to vote for a
standard change
IMO.
tc
Terry and Janet Chandler
Rugerheim Kennels
German Shorthaired Pointers
Training/Puppies/Stud Service
Las Cruces, NM
575-382-5231
rugerheim.com
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karen_conrey
JH
Posts:21
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| 05/11/2009 7:40 PM |
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Good point Terry and one of the better responses opposed to changing the standard. Thanks for sharing. My thought had always been to allow the black into the breed ring to offer more diversity in the gene pool of responsible breeders who love to show and to correct the standard to reflect something closely to what the parent club has... but then that is my opinion and I respect yours.
Most that have blacks that I know... like Debbie... could really care less about showing... it is more those that want to have additional options to breeding programs that were behind the changes... at least that is how I started off and then hooked up with Debbie on a dog... who happens to have had one of the best noses I and others I know has ever seen. She is a sheer joy to watch and wonder over... and yes... I could care less now about the breed ring... so you are right... the true supporters of black will bred to the best GSPs that they can find regardless of the color and the loss to the bred is that we cannot share the true beauty of these wonderful dogs with all dog fanciers. Thanks
--- On Mon, 5/11/09, Rugerheim wrote:
From: Rugerheim
Subject: RE: [gsp-l] Back on topic
To: gsp-l@web.whc.net
Date: Monday, May 11, 2009, 9:06 PM
So let me get this straight. There are people out there that own black GSPs. People who have bred to blacks and have some puppies that
are black, and some that are liver in the same litter. Therefore, all of "us" GSPCA members should vote for a standard change to allow black.
These folks knew going in that they could not show black GSP's, they knew that it was not allowed in the breed standard. But,
they bought black dogs, or bred to black dogs, and they now want us to change the standard because of this decision that "they" made?
I don't get it . . .
The proponents of black GSP's have to come up with something better than this to encourage the majority of our membership to vote for a
standard change IMO.
tc
Terry and Janet Chandler
Rugerheim Kennels
German Shorthaired Pointers
Training/Puppies/Stud Service
Las Cruces, NM
575-382-5231
rugerheim.com |
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Jarvyce
MH
Posts:87
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| 05/11/2009 7:42 PM |
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In a message dated 5/11/2009 8:56:54 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
rugerheim@zianet.com writes:
O K
Karen, educate me. What great sires in our breed have black behind
them?
tc
Ummmm...... ZOBEL???
Arvind
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karen_conrey
JH
Posts:21
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| 05/11/2009 7:53 PM |
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You got it right Arvind!!!
--- On Mon, 5/11/09, Jarvyce@aol.com wrote:
From: Jarvyce@aol.com
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Back on topic
To: gsp-l@web.whc.net
Date: Monday, May 11, 2009, 9:27 PM
In a message dated 5/11/2009 8:56:54 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rugerheim@zianet.com writes:
O K Karen, educate me. What great sires in our breed have black behind them?
tc
Ummmm...... ZOBEL???
Arvind
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Almost Heaven GSP
Springfield, WV
MH
Posts:731
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| 05/11/2009 8:09 PM |
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| KS/ Int /Am CH Zobel Vom Pregelufer
http://pawvillage.com/pedigree/dynprofile.asp?ID=VO69470RQ3
His Sire was Black.
Thanx Kindly and Have A Great Day,
Bruce
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rugerheim"
To: gsp-l@web.whc.net
Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 8:55:43 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: RE: [gsp-l] Back on topic
O K Karen, educate me. What great sires in our breed have black behind them?
tc
>> Just for one point on the gene pool.... ever look at what was behind some of the "great" sires? You might be surprised that there are some nice "black" dogs in there.
Karen
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Money will buy a fine dog, but only kindness will make him wag his tail.
Bruce Shaffer
Almost Heaven GSP's
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tc
MH
Posts:117
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| 05/11/2009 9:20 PM |
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OK. Zobel. I
am sure that he is behind a very small percentage of our GSP's in this
country.
The comment
was " >> Just for one point on the gene pool.... ever look at
what was behind some
of the
"great" sires? You might be surprised that there are some nice "black" dogs in
there. Karen<<
What are
some of the others?
In a message dated 5/11/2009 8:56:54 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
rugerheim@zianet.com writes:
O K
Karen, educate me. What great sires in our breed have black behind
them?
tc
Ummmm...... ZOBEL???
Arvind
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GSPJustin
Fremont, CA
MH
Posts:121
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wyndbournegsp
MH
Posts:215
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| 05/11/2009 10:02 PM |
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I am curious as to how you know so much about a dog that you probably never laid eyes on. Hear-say???????
sue
Wyndbourne
-----Original Message-----
From: Karen Conrey
To: gsp-l@web.whc.net
Sent: Mon, 11 May 2009 9:39 pm
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Back on topic
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Jarvyce
MH
Posts:87
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| 05/11/2009 10:08 PM |
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In a message dated 5/11/2009 11:49:50 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
wyndbournegsp@aol.com writes:
I am
curious as to how you know so much about a dog that you probably never laid
eyes on. Hear-say???????
sue
Wyndbourne
If this was to me, I have researched him and spoken to
breeders who had their hands on him. I have seen intimate photos taken by
Pam Fullford (Lorien GSP) who HAD and HAS intimate knowledge of him. You
of course bred to him and had Rudy, on of my all time favorite dogs, and
I have learned a lot from you. I guess if first person accounting is hearsay
then ... yes from hearsay.
Of course if this wasn't to me then maybe it should have been
addressed as such. Plus, I thought you were pro Black being passed. You did
breed Shane to a black bitch and finished one of the liver offspring, right?
Hopefully I just misread this.
Arvind
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CathyYak
MH
Posts:963
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| 05/12/2009 5:30 AM |
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In a message dated 5/11/2009 9:07:10 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
rugerheim@zianet.com writes:
proponents
of black GSP's have to come up with something better than this to
encourage the majority of our membership to vote for a
standard change
IMO.
The majority of our memberhip just voted for the change. 60% is
the number I heard. We were off by a mere 6%. In fact, if I am not
mistaken, the majority of our membership voted for the change last time
too. You can keep trying to make it look like a few people want to correct
this injustice. But that is simply not the case. When the numbers
are posted, we will see. Since there was no valid reason for the black and
white GSPs to be excluded from our standard in the first place, I believe it is
an injustice.
I think it is disturbing that the main reason for voting no according to
these posts has been:
A. to cover up cross breeding by field triallers
B. because it has been on the ballot more than once
So far that's all I've seen besides a suggestion that if we want black and
whites, we all have to agree to have bigger dogs. Since mine have been
bred for generations to comply with the standard we now have, I don't know if I
can agree that it is a good idea to raise the standard with a vote, and thereby
make a bunch of dogs bred to conform for decades, now undersized
overnight. Would be nice for those with dogs that are already over though,
I suppose...
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Cathy Iacopelli
Claddagh Kennels
Long Island, New York |
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CathyYak
MH
Posts:963
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| 05/12/2009 6:04 AM |
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In a message dated 5/11/2009 6:41:55 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
dlquindt@hotmail.com writes:
We
have the most numerous, diverse and vibrant population of GSPs in
the world.
Based on what research? I hear some pretty awful stories
regarding the health (vibrancy) of our breed. And a great segment of
the breeders out there test for little or nothing. So how can you say we
have the most vibrant GSPs in the world? If you want to present an
opinion, then you should present it as such and not as fact without being able
to back it up with documentation.
<<While we retained segments of the
breed which are very consistent with original intent of the breed in
northern Europe, a great deal of natural evolution has
occurred and the breed has been stretched to meet the needs of
sportsmen not just of northern Europe, but of a continent so
diverse in it's habitat and terrain to be almost inconceivable to the
original breed fathers. >>
Many people think Americans have bastardized the breed by breeding in
pointers to increase run. And in many cases those people would be correct,
unfortunately. And I think you underestimate our "breed fathers" if you
think they could not imagine other lands. They did a pretty darn good job
over there developing breeds of dogs for specific uses. Not just
GSPs.
<<We
have done so without the use of black GSPs; the handful of black dogs in
the US over the decades is statistically
immaterial.>>
No
we haven't, black and black and white GSPs are used in every venue except the
show ring. They are already in our gene pool. Just excluded from our
show rings.
<<So what's the breed going to gain by allowing
black dogs in the ring that it does not have
today? >>
IMO, it will correct an injustice done by a handful of people decades
ago, who left out the color either accidentally, or deliberately. But lets
not romanticize them. They were just people like us, and some had pure
motives, and undoubtedly some had selfish motives. Just like people
now. In all of the debate over all of the years, no one has ever produced
the real reason black was excluded. Might have been a problem with
translation. Maybe they just didn't want the competition. Who
knows?
It's funny the things that have been added or removed from the
standard over the years. And it's funny the things that
haven't.
Hey, would anyone out there have enough documentation to do a study
on just how the standard has evolved since it was first set? I bet we will
see a pattern...
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Cathy Iacopelli
Claddagh Kennels
Long Island, New York |
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Tracy Novoa
Western NY
MH
Posts:191
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| 05/12/2009 8:52 AM |
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Terry,
I'm just curious about something. I know you field trial and I've never got involved in that venue. I do hunt tests and NAVHDA, where I know there are some quality black GSPs who have relative dogs to my own l/w GSPs.
At a trial, if a black GSP comes up to the line, does it stand a fair chance against a "non-black" bracemate? Do fellow trialers frown upon this dog?
I don't understand since both FC and CH are titles obtained by competing and winning in AKC how a dog can be allowed in one area and not the other. That's why I'm very curious as to how these dogs are perceived if they show up at a trial.
Seriously, can you paint me a picture?
Tracy Novoa
-----Original Message-----
From: Rugerheim
To: gsp-l@web.whc.net
Sent: Mon, 11 May 2009 9:06 pm
Subject: RE: [gsp-l] Back on topic
So let me get this straight. There are people out there that own black GSPs. People who have bred to blacks and have some puppies that
are black, and some that are liver in the same litter. Therefore, all of "us" GSPCA members should vote for a standard change to allow black.
These folks knew going in that they could not show black GSP's, they knew that it was not allowed in the breed standard. But,
they bought black dogs, or bred to black dogs, and they now want us to change the standard because of this decision that "they" made?
I don't get it . . .
The proponents of black GSP's have to come up with something better than this to encourage the majority of our membership to vote for a
standard change IMO.
tc
Terry and Janet Chandler
Rugerheim Kennels
German Shorthaired Pointers
Training/Puppies/Stud Service
Las Cruces, NM
575-382-5231
rugerheim.com
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Enjoy them every minute you have them!
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david.nauer
MH
Posts:125
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| 05/12/2009 9:23 AM |
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Terry – I certainly respect your
opinion and you make excellent points (as you normally do), but I do want to
correct something. To your comment below, the majority of our membership
did vote to change the standard – to be precise – a reported 60% on
this vote. A “super majority” (e.g. two thirds) did not. The
majority of the voting membership in the GSPCA support a change to allow black in
our standard and have so for at least a decade. Those against adding
black into the standard are in the minority of the voting membership.
Dave
David Nauer
VoyagerGSPs
>>> I don't get it . . .
>>> The proponents of black GSP's have to come up with
something better than this to encourage the majority of our membership to
vote for a
standard change IMO.
>>> tc
>>> Terry and Janet Chandler
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Dave Quindt
SH
Posts:41
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| 05/12/2009 9:29 AM |
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In my experience it's a non-event. The color doesn't matter; the performance does. Back in '02 there was a black dog that took 4th in the GSPCA field futurity. If a dog can place there, it can place anywhere.
If you've got non-GSP judges in the saddle, they may ask about why black GSPs are so rare. But judges assume that if the secretary took the entry, the dog is supposed to be there and will get the judges' full and equal attention.
As a side note, I don't believe there's ever been a black Field Champion. I've seen a few run here and there, but the majority of performance folks I know with black dogs have no interest in trialing, or showing for that matter. Most of the black dogs I've seen have a very traditional body style and coupled with a black coat, it's going to be very hard to have the same stamina and heat tolerance of the white & liver dogs that make up the competition.
I'm sure Terry will reply with what he sees in the Southwest, but I doubt it's any different than what we see here in the Great Lakes & Midwest.
JMO,
Dave
Dave Quindt
Bolingbrook, IL
To: gsp-l@web.whc.net
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Back on topic
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 10:20:26 -0400
From: gspfreak@aol.com
Terry,
I'm just curious about something. I know you field trial and I've never got involved in that venue. I do hunt tests and NAVHDA, where I know there are some quality black GSPs who have relative dogs to my own l/w GSPs.
At a trial, if a black GSP comes up to the line, does it stand a fair chance against a "non-black" bracemate? Do fellow trialers frown upon this dog?
I don't understand since both FC and CH are titles obtained by competing and winning in AKC how a dog can be allowed in one area and not the other. That's why I'm very curious as to how these dogs are perceived if they show up at a trial.
Seriously, can you paint me a picture?
Tracy Novoa
Hotmail® has a new way to see what's up with your friends. Check it out.
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tc
MH
Posts:117
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| 05/12/2009 10:25 AM |
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Hello Tracy,
In
field trials the dogs are not judged against a conformation standard they are
judged on their performance. As a field trial judge it does not matter to me what color the dog is, I
am judging how they
perform. I cannot speak for other judges but I am fairly certain that the
majority of field trial judges have the same perspective as I do. Most
of our trials are open to all breeds so we see dogs of every
shape
size and color. In saying that I do not think that black GSP's would
be discriminated against. I have seen a few blacks competing in field trials.
None of them have been "Great". In other words,
I have
not seen any black GSP's that would "add" quality to what we now
have in the sport.
Terry
>> Terry,
I'm just
curious about something. I know you field trial and I've never got
involved in that venue. I do hunt tests and NAVHDA, where I know
there are some quality black GSPs who have relative dogs to my own l/w
GSPs.
At a trial, if a black GSP comes up to the line, does it stand a
fair chance against a "non-black" bracemate? Do fellow trialers frown upon
this dog?
I don't understand since both FC and CH are titles
obtained by competing and winning in AKC how a dog can be allowed in one area
and not the other. That's why I'm very curious as to how these dogs are
perceived if they show up at a trial.
Seriously, can you paint me a
picture?
Tracy Novoa <<
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