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tc
MH
Posts:117
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| 05/11/2009 10:01 AM |
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If the premise to approving black is to come closer to
the FCI standard, the standard developed in the country of origin, then we
should also accept yellow markings.
The FCI standard states "Yellow markings are
permitted". (FCI Standard number 119/05.01.1995/GB)
Terry
I have a question. My problem is
not having Black or Liver. It is the Orange and Yellow ticking and or
patches...Do you ever consider these colors? In some breedings they will come
out.
Lynn
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tracygraci
SH
Posts:45
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| 05/11/2009 10:20 AM |
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Thank You Terry
-----Original Message-----
From: Rugerheim
To: gsp-l@web.whc.net
Sent: Mon, 11 May 2009 11:46 am
Subject: RE: [gsp-l] Black vote?
If the premise to approving black is to come closer to
the FCI standard, the standard developed in the country of origin, then we
should also accept yellow markings.
The FCI standard states "Yellow markings are
permitted". (FCI Standard number 119/05.01.1995/GB)
Terry
I have a question. My problem is
not having Black or Liver. It is the Orange and Yellow ticking and or
patches...Do you ever consider these colors? In some breedings they will come
out.
Lynn
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k9sports4gsps
SH
Posts:43
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| 05/11/2009 10:54 AM |
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Can someone explain why the orange and yellow discussion comes up with the black?
Weren't we only voting to allow a color accepted in almost all other countries? Has anyone looked at other countries that allow blacks in breed ring to see how black affects these issues that everyone is concerned about?
judy
From: "tracygraci@aol.com"
To: gsp-l@web.whc.net
Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009
11:29:32 AM
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Black vote?
Cathy, You honestly believe that in some of our GSP's there is No Pointer back there??? I would wonder what a current DNA would show on a field trail dog with known pointer way in his background? How would it come up? When I started in GSP's in 1974 it was field trailing and I know for a fact that they were breeding GSP & AF Pointers. So there are a lot of people out there that have these old lines way back in their pedigree. If those dogs were never followed through DNA then what is to say that these pointer colors could not come out?
JMO
L
-----Original Message-----
From: cathyyak@aol.com
To: gsp-l@web.whc.net
Sent: Mon, 11 May 2009 11:00 am
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Black vote?
It is the Orange and Yellow ticking and or patches...Do you ever consider these colors? In some breedings they will come out.
Purebred GSPs should never be orange or lemon. Orange or lemon are not acceptable in GSP's in any country that I am aware of, probably because those colors indicate impure breeding. As does silver, regardless of what you (generic you) may have heard. Two purebred GSPs will not produce those colors. If they do, there is either a genetic mutation (which is often mentioned, but rarely, if ever, actually the case), or there is another breed of dog in one of the previous generations, maybe unknown to the people who produced those dogs. With DNA testing now not only able to determine immediate parentage, but also able to detect mixed bred dogs, this should not be a problem down the road.
Francois, can you assist in the genetic explanation of this?
Cathy
-----Original Message-----
From: tracygraci@aol.com
To: gsp-l@web.whc.net
Sent: Mon, 11 May 2009 10:46 am
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Black vote?
I have a question. My problem is not having Black or Liver. It is the Orange and Yellow ticking and or patches...Do you ever consider these colors? In some breedings they will come out.
Lynn
-----Original Message-----
From: gspfreak@aol.com
To: gsp-l@web.whc.net
Sent: Mon, 11 May 2009 9:42 am
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Black vote?
Unfortunately, as well, I know there are GSPCA members who cannot be convinced otherwise, that there WILL be liver AND black GSPs.
Tracy
-----Original Message-----
From: CathyYak@aol.com
To: gsp-l@web.whc.net
Sent: Mon, 11 May 2009 7:08 am
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Black vote?
It is the people that unload
puppies on the people who watched a black GSP win and Westminister. Who
now all "Godda' have one".
When pigs fly. I cannot see a black and white or a solid black GSP winning Westminster. But I am glad you are admitting that black and white GSP's are high quality enough for it to be worrying you  .
(That's a joke in case anyone missed it)
Guess we better hope a solid liver never wins there either, huh? Or a white factor? Same thing could happen...
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escampbell
MH
Posts:213
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| 05/11/2009 11:19 AM |
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No, my premise has never been to bring us closer to the FCI standard. Countries which allow the black color include countries like the UK, which do not use the FCI standard. My belief has always been that black is a legitimate color for a purebred GSP to be and should thus be allowed in the breed ring. It is a color that came in later in the breed and Patte Titus's article that appeared last year in the Shorthair Journal gave an excellent summary of its history.
I echo Judy's post. Have those with concerns about allowing black in the breed ring, looked abroad and asked those questions? A friend of mine in England who has had everything from liver ticked to solid livers and now has blacks, too, has not had problems with yellow or orange. But others should do their own research. Remember, all we are talking about is allowing the color in the breed ring. Black GSPs can and are used as breeding stock and are behind quite a few liver dogs.
But Terry, you and I have been debating this for many years. We aren't ever going to agree on this issue, as I think you know! 
Eleanor Campbell
Chester, NJ
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Eleanor Campbell
New Jersey
Sydney, Presto, Price, Ozma and Soleil |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4450
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| 05/11/2009 4:33 PM |
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It is my personal thinking that if a puppy was born with yellow markings in europe, it would would be culled.
Francine |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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bajnok
MH
Posts:67
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| 05/11/2009 5:47 PM |
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I'll agree with you that orange or yellow markings ought not
to be produced by purebred GSPs. An exception to this broad statement is
the case of tan points as on Dobes or Rotties. The a^t allele occurs in the
GSP. A dog that is a^t a^t may exhibit some yellow colouring. There are
references to the Gelber brand in the German standard, and this is what is
reflected in the FCI standard. The reference to yellow markings has to be read
in context as referring to markings in those areas where an a^t a^t dog would
exhibit tan markings. Yellow or orange markings anywhere else would not be
expected to occur short of a somatic mutation.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 11:00 AM
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Black vote?
It is the
Orange and Yellow ticking and or patches...Do you ever consider these
colors? In some breedings they will come out.
Purebred
GSPs should never be orange or lemon. Orange or lemon are not
acceptable in GSP's in any country that I am aware of, probably because those
colors indicate impure breeding. As does silver, regardless of what you
(generic you) may have heard. Two purebred GSPs will not produce
those colors. If they do, there is either a genetic mutation (which is
often mentioned, but rarely, if ever, actually the case), or there is another
breed of dog in one of the previous generations, maybe unknown to the people
who produced those dogs. With DNA testing now not only able to determine
immediate parentage, but also able to detect mixed bred dogs, this should not
be a problem down the road.
Francois, can you assist in the genetic
explanation of this?
Cathy
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tracygraci
SH
Posts:45
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| 05/11/2009 6:54 PM |
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Hello Francios.
Was not trying to start anything here. Also I never said I did not like a Black GSP.
What I was trying to get across was that DNA in our breed is fairly new. It is been said that back in the 60's & 70's ( maybe longer I don't know) that some field breeders bred the GSP with an AF Pointer. With that said my thoughts were that if you bring black back into the mix and since it is dominant, That there could be puppies produced with lemon or orange spots ticking what ever. I have seen it and so have some others. We all know where and how the GSP came about. We all here love our breed and want to defend it the way we think is right. No one is right or wrong. We just have opinions and thoughts. As I said I got into GSP's in 1974. My first one was a Solid Liver Male bought from a field trial pro. I know of several breeding's but back then it was not a big deal. However it could become a big deal if a New Person came into the breed and had a field bitch or dog that they bred with a black. I always want to hear your thoughts. Otherwise I am done with the conversation.
Lynn
-----Original Message-----
From: François Bernier
To: gsp-l@web.whc.net
Sent: Mon, 11 May 2009 7:33 pm
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Black vote?
I'll agree with you that orange or yellow markings ought not
to be produced by purebred GSPs. An exception to this broad statement is
the case of tan points as on Dobes or Rotties. The a^t allele occurs in the
GSP. A dog that is a^t a^t may exhibit some yellow colouring. There are
references to the Gelber brand in the German standard, and this is what is
reflected in the FCI standard. The reference to yellow markings has to be read
in context as referring to markings in those areas where an a^t a^t dog would
exhibit tan markings. Yellow or orange markings anywhere else would not be
expected to occur short of a somatic mutation.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 11:00 AM
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Black vote?
It is the
Orange and Yellow ticking and or patches...Do you ever consider these
colors? In some breedings they will come out.
Purebred
GSPs should never be orange or lemon. Orange or lemon are not
acceptable in GSP's in any country that I am aware of, probably because those
colors indicate impure breeding. As does silver, regardless of what you
(generic you) may have heard. Two purebred GSPs will not produce
those colors.&n
bsp; If they do, there is either a genetic mutation (which is
often mentioned, but rarely, if ever, actually the case), or there is another
breed of dog in one of the previous generations, maybe unknown to the people
who produced those dogs. With DNA testing now not only able to determine
immediate parentage, but also able to detect mixed bred dogs, this should not
be a problem down the road.
Francois, can you assist in the genetic
explanation of this?
Cathy
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Jarvyce
MH
Posts:87
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| 05/11/2009 7:55 PM |
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In a message dated 5/11/2009 7:34:54 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
bajnok@videotron.ca writes:
I'll agree with you that orange or yellow markings ought not
to be produced by purebred GSPs. An exception to this broad statement is
the case of tan points as on Dobes or Rotties. The a^t allele occurs in
the GSP. A dog that is a^t a^t may exhibit some yellow colouring. There are
references to the Gelber brand in the German standard, and this is what is
reflected in the FCI standard. The reference to yellow markings has to be read
in context as referring to markings in those areas where an a^t a^t dog would
exhibit tan markings. Yellow or orange markings anywhere else would not
be expected to occur short of a somatic mutation.
Francois-R. Bernier
Is this like the tri-color Pointer markings? Not to say that
is the cause, but to liken it to something more tangible for me to grasp. Please
respond privately if you wish.
Arvind
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bajnok
MH
Posts:67
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| 05/12/2009 4:20 AM |
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Yes. Tan markings would be found
(assuming they can be expressed... (on white coat, there may not be much more
visible than some slight discoloration of the white). On darker dogs these would
be spots over the eyes, sides of the muzzle, throat, chest, forelegs, etc
etc...same areas as on a Dobe or a Gordon Setter. I have pictures of both a
(bad) Pointer pup with tan markings and a German Wirehaired pup. Can post
these examples privately if wanted.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 9:39 PM
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Black vote?
I'll agree with you that orange or yellow markings ought
not to be produced by purebred GSPs. An exception to this broad
statement is the case of tan points as on Dobes or Rotties. The a^t
allele occurs in the GSP. A dog that is a^t a^t may exhibit some yellow
colouring. There are references to the Gelber brand in the German standard,
and this is what is reflected in the FCI standard. The reference to yellow
markings has to be read in context as referring to markings in those areas
where an a^t a^t dog would exhibit tan markings. Yellow or orange
markings anywhere else would not be expected to occur short of a somatic
mutation.
Francois-R.
Bernier
Is this like the tri-color Pointer markings? Not to say that
is the cause, but to liken it to something more tangible for me to grasp.
Please respond privately if you wish.
Arvind
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micyn1
Windber, PA
JH
Posts:30
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| 05/12/2009 3:06 PM |
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Patience guys.
I am on the road home results are packed under the RV and will come out to the sunlight and out of the wind when I get home Wed.
Will get full results and minutes posted on the website and in the Journal.
I can tell you we had a better voter turn out than last year.
and yes Black got 60% of the vote needed 66.6666
I don't know the exact figures off of the top of my head sorry.
--- On Sun, 5/10/09, Judy S wrote:
From: Judy S
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Black vote?
To: gsp-l@web.whc.net
Date: Sunday, May 10, 2009, 9:11 PM
as well as how many just didn't vote
thanks
judy
From: "CathyYak@aol.com"
To: gsp-l@web.whc.net
Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2009 3:29:02 PM
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Black vote?
In a message dated 5/10/2009 3:08:46 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, janetmcz@comcast.net writes:
60% voted for the color change, but 66.6% was needed for the change to pass.
When the NSS is over and the people involved get a chance to take a breath, I would like to know how many voted. How many voted yes, how many voted no and how many submitted a vote with no preference on it. Also how many votes were disallowed and why.
Thanks in advance for the information.
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Cynthia
MiCynVPack
Home of CH GSPs and PBGVs |
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j.kyrylchuk
Posts:5
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| 05/12/2009 8:29 PM |
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| I am an owner of 4 B&W GSP's and I am tired of this topic popping up every
year and having the same discussion over again. Terry's post is the best
suggestion that has been posted since I first came on this list. I have no
interest in the show ring and could careless if they are ever allowed and
may prefer that they are not allowed. I just want to make a couple of
comments. First I keep getting the impression that some think that if black
is not allowed you will never have a problem with cross breeding with
pointers, news flash this is happening with the livers more that it has ever
happened with the blacks.
Second I was interested in joining the GSPCC and had received a copy of the
bylaws before I applied. The bylaws stated, if memory serves me, that the
members must adhere to the breed standard to be in good standing and since
B&W was not a part of that standard I made the choice not to complete the
application. That is kind of a long winded way of getting to the point. Does
the GSPCA have a similar statement in their bylaws and if they do have they
ever dismissed any one based on that section
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rugerheim"
To:
Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2009 6:25 PM
Subject: RE: [gsp-l] Black vote?
>
> I know a lot of GSPCA members that are basically "on the fence" about
> approving the black color
> in our standard. Many of those have told me that they voted no because
> they
> are tired of seeing
> it come up for vote year after year to be voted on (I think that this is
> the
> third year in a row).
> Many of those people have told me that they feel like it is being shoved
> down their throat
> year after year trying to wear down the people who are opposed to black,
> hoping that they will
> tire of this issue and vote it through to be done with it.
>
> My advice to the people who want our standard to be changed to approve
> black
> would be to give
> it a rest for a couple of years and promote your cause, then revisit it.
>
> Just a suggestion from a GSP breeder that has been around for a while.
>
> Terry Chandler
>
>
> Terry and Janet Chandler
> Rugerheim Kennels
> German Shorthaired Pointers
> Training/Puppies/Stud Service
> Las Cruces, NM
> 575-382-5231
> rugerheim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gsp-l-request@web.whc.net [mailto:gsp-l-request@web.whc.net] On
> Behalf
> Of JEMZ
> Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2009 1:02 PM
> To: gsp-l@web.whc.net
> Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Black vote?
>
> 60% voted for the color change, but 66.6% was needed for the change to
> pass.
>
>
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4450
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| 05/13/2009 6:37 AM |
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A main point for me is to have the conformation judged and recorded. As it stands now, the conformation is judged solely by the owner and breedings may be more subject to kennel blindness. While some will choose to breed and not show their dogs, this can be a mistake. A conformation rating by a knowledgable indiviual(s) is necessary to maintain the integrity of the breed. Just like I would like to see all GSPs be required to be field proven, I would like to see all have a conformation rating.
Francine |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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