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CathyYak
MH
Posts:963
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| 05/10/2009 6:15 AM |
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So what was the result of the vote to remove black as a DQ?
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Cathy Iacopelli
Claddagh Kennels
Long Island, New York |
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SouthMtnGSPs
MH
Posts:78
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| 05/10/2009 7:40 AM |
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No
From:
gsp-l-request@web.whc.net [mailto:gsp-l-request@web.whc.net] On Behalf Of CathyYak@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2009 8:01 AM
To: gsp-l@web.whc.net
Subject: [gsp-l] Black vote?
So what was the result of the vote to remove black as a DQ?
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LahrGSP
MH
Posts:703
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| 05/10/2009 10:02 AM |
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I really wish the people who vote no would tell us why they voted no. It
makes no sense to me why they wont let them be shown.
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pbeachene
JH
Posts:23
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| 05/10/2009 10:11 AM |
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It’s the same reason why they won’t
let parti poodles be shown. They have been around for centuries and they come
from solid stock. In fact, a parti poodle bitch is currently listed as a top
producer of 5 AKC solid champions. But partis can’t be shown AKC.
Go figure. It’s called prejudice.
From: ersonName
w:st="on">gsp-l-request@web.whc.netersonName> [mailto:ersonName
w:st="on">gsp-l-request@web.whc.netersonName>] On Behalf Of LahrGSP@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2009 11:47
AM
To: ersonName w:st="on">gsp-l@web.whc.netersonName>
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Black vote?
I really wish the people who vote no
would tell us why they voted no. It makes no sense to me why they wont let them
be shown.
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janetmcz
SH
Posts:47
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| 05/10/2009 1:22 PM |
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| 60% voted for the color change, but 66.6% was needed for the change to pass.
(Note: this is an increase from the votes last year when 57% voted for
the color change.)
Janet McMillan Zwirko
CathyYak@aol.com wrote:
> So what was the result of the vote to remove black as a DQ?
>
> *Cathy Iacopelli*_
> Claddagh Kennels __
> German Shorthaired Pointers
> _
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *The Average US Credit Score is 692. See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps!
> *
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CathyYak
MH
Posts:963
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| 05/10/2009 1:43 PM |
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In a message dated 5/10/2009 3:08:46 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
janetmcz@comcast.net writes:
60%
voted for the color change, but 66.6% was needed for the change to
pass.
When the NSS is over and the people involved get a chance to take a breath,
I would like to know how many voted. How many voted yes, how many voted no
and how many submitted a vote with no preference on it. Also how many
votes were disallowed and why.
Thanks in advance for the information.
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Cathy Iacopelli
Claddagh Kennels
Long Island, New York |
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singltrak
Las Cruces, NM
MH
Posts:1149
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| 05/10/2009 4:47 PM |
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Nevertheless, those who voted NO are still entitled, and remain entitled to their opinion.
Prejudicial or not...
Phyllis McNall***Singltrak Shorthairs
Las Cruces, New Mexico
"Look To The Past, Breed For The Future"
--- On Sun, 5/10/09, Maryann Beauchene wrote:
From: Maryann Beauchene
Subject: RE: [gsp-l] Black vote?
To: gsp-l@web.whc.net
Date: Sunday, May 10, 2009, 9:56 AM
It’s the same reason why they won’t let parti poodles be shown. They have been around for centuries and they come from solid stock. In fact, a parti poodle bitch is currently listed as a top producer of 5 AKC solid champions. But partis can’t be shown AKC. Go figure. It’s called prejudice.
From: gsp-l-request@web.whc.net [mailto: gsp-l-request@web.whc.net ] On Behalf Of LahrGSP@aol.com
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Look to the Past, Breed for the Future |
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GSPJustin
Fremont, CA
MH
Posts:121
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| 05/10/2009 6:15 PM |
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| Personally, I like the liver color better, but I care not if black can
show in an AKC event or not. I did not vote in this matter, but I can
tell you 1 reason why I would vote no. Simply because I am cautious of
what the human element will do and perceive this as. Backyard breeders
that might see it as a niche to sell a rare(r) breed type. In turn
making more dogs that will not be owned. A dog does not care if it is
black or brown, but if people see a place to make some money, moral or
not, they will sceme it until they ruin it.
Just my Opinion
Justin Anzelc |
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Justin Anzelc
--
Snowcreek Beaudacious Rock JH
Shorthairs And More |
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tc
MH
Posts:117
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| 05/10/2009 6:46 PM |
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I know a lot of GSPCA members that are basically "on the fence" about
approving the black color
in our standard. Many of those have told me that they voted no because they
are tired of seeing
it come up for vote year after year to be voted on (I think that this is the
third year in a row).
Many of those people have told me that they feel like it is being shoved
down their throat
year after year trying to wear down the people who are opposed to black,
hoping that they will
tire of this issue and vote it through to be done with it.
My advice to the people who want our standard to be changed to approve black
would be to give
it a rest for a couple of years and promote your cause, then revisit it.
Just a suggestion from a GSP breeder that has been around for a while.
Terry Chandler
Terry and Janet Chandler
Rugerheim Kennels
German Shorthaired Pointers
Training/Puppies/Stud Service
Las Cruces, NM
575-382-5231
rugerheim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: gsp-l-request@web.whc.net [mailto:gsp-l-request@web.whc.net] On Behalf
Of JEMZ
Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2009 1:02 PM
To: gsp-l@web.whc.net
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Black vote?
60% voted for the color change, but 66.6% was needed for the change to pass.
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k9sports4gsps
SH
Posts:43
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| 05/10/2009 7:32 PM |
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as well as how many just didn't vote
thanks
judy
From: "CathyYak@aol.com"
To: gsp-l@web.whc.net
Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2009 3:29:02 PM
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Black vote?
In a message dated 5/10/2009 3:08:46 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
janetmcz@comcast.net writes:
60%
voted for the color change, but 66.6% was needed for the change to
pass.
When the NSS is over and the people involved get a chance to take a breath,
I would like to know how many voted. How many voted yes, how many voted no
and how many submitted a vote with no preference on it. Also how many
votes were disallowed and why.
Thanks in advance for the information.
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escampbell
MH
Posts:213
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| 05/10/2009 8:02 PM |
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In reply to Justin, the color is already here, sometimes being responsibly bred and sometimes being touted as rare. I am active in rescue and, yep, they are being rescued, too. Being allowed or not allowed in the show ring will have little impact on the "breeders" already promoting them as "rare." Actually, they really aren't that rare any more.
In reply to Terry, the issue was presented in 2006, 2008 and 2009, if my memory serves me correctly. It was not presented mutliple times in order to shove it down anyone's throat. Last year, many people objected to the proposed wording and voiced that objection strongly and said they would have voted in favor if the wording had not been what it was. So, the proposed wording was changed this year. In a democracy, just as people can vote down an issue, people can also fight for their issue.
That being said, my young black and white and I have many AKC events we can and do compete in, including the field (where she was not the only black GSP at one field trial!) Soleil continues to promote the "cause" as Sydney did before her. Hopefully, she will be ready for obedience and agility competition at next year's NSS in Florida.
And Soleil competes in UKC breed, where she is "legal." 
Eleanor Campbell
New Jersey
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Eleanor Campbell
New Jersey
Sydney, Presto, Price, Ozma and Soleil |
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CathyYak
MH
Posts:963
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| 05/10/2009 8:22 PM |
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Justin, so in order to prevent something that may not happen any more than
it is already happening, the honest people can't show their dogs? That
doesn't seem very fair to me. But then, I am sometimes alone in
my opinions  ...
The right to vote on our breed standard is an important thing. I
think that we should vote our opinion each time we have a chance, regardless of
what it is. Members who fail to vote are letting an opportunity to be
involved in their club slip by, no matter the issue, IMO.
Just to clarify, the people who worked their backsides off last year to
educate people regarding some common misinformation in order to
hopefully get the black color DQ removed were as surprised as everyone else
when it appeared on the ballot again this year. There was much confusion
on the Blackgsps list when the rumor started to circulate that the issue would
be placed back on the ballot for 2009. I don't know for sure who put
it there. Perhaps someone else who is sure can let us know.
But I can be confident in saying that there is NO EFFORT to irritate people
into voting for the change by repeatedly putting it on the ballot. That
would seem like a very childish thing to do and those that I know who would like
to see black and white dogs compete alongside their liver and white littermates
are not childish game players.
I do know that there was talk after each of the first two failed
attempts that people said they voted against the change because they did
not feel the language was clear enough. That seems like a
technicality to me and worth correcting and revoting, since it was not the
concept itself that was found objectionable.
Just wanted to clear that up as a member of the Blackgsps list, and a
person who is generally in the loop on this issue.
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Cathy Iacopelli
Claddagh Kennels
Long Island, New York |
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GSPJustin
Fremont, CA
MH
Posts:121
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| 05/10/2009 8:51 PM |
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| All I can say to that, as needlessly sarcastic as it may be, is welcome
to America. Where one person can ruin it for everyone. I seem to find
myself thinking things aren't fair in just about every avenue I explore.
Not much sympathy in that department.
I have to agree that this issue being forced upon me over and over is
getting very continual and uninteresting. It also seems biased because
if it does pass there will most likely be no vote to overturn the
decision. For multiple reasons I imagine. One being because no one will
care enough anymore or be fed up with the matter. I am not saying I am
against black being the in standard. However I do feel that, that side
is being unfairly ridiculed.
I don't know to much about the history of black in the GSP lineage.
However I don't recall seeing many, if any, black,GSPs (not that I was
looking) when the breed was brought to America, maybe its purely a breed
conservation thing that makes people vote no?
Just my opinion,
Justin Anzelc
CathyYak@aol.com wrote:
> Justin, so in order to prevent something that may not happen any more
> than it is already happening, the honest people can't show their
> dogs? That doesn't seem very fair to me. But then, I am sometimes
> alone in my opinions ...
>
> The right to vote on our breed standard is an important thing. I
> think that we should vote our opinion each time we have a chance,
> regardless of what it is. Members who fail to vote are letting an
> opportunity to be involved in their club slip by, no matter the issue,
> IMO.
>
> Just to clarify, the people who worked their backsides off last year
> to educate people regarding some common misinformation in order to
> hopefully get the black color DQ removed were as surprised as everyone
> else when it appeared on the ballot again this year. There was much
> confusion on the Blackgsps list when the rumor started to circulate
> that the issue would be placed back on the ballot for 2009. I don't
> know for sure who put it there. Perhaps someone else who is sure can
> let us know. But I can be confident in saying that there is NO EFFORT
> to irritate people into voting for the change by repeatedly putting it
> on the ballot. That would seem like a very childish thing to do and
> those that I know who would like to see black and white dogs compete
> alongside their liver and white littermates are not childish game players.
>
> I do know that there was talk after each of the first two failed
> attempts that people said they voted against the change because they
> did not feel the language was clear enough. That seems like a
> technicality to me and worth correcting and revoting, since it was not
> the concept itself that was found objectionable.
>
> Just wanted to clear that up as a member of the Blackgsps list, and a
> person who is generally in the loop on this issue.
>
> *Cathy Iacopelli*_
> Claddagh Kennels __
> German Shorthaired Pointers_
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *The Average US Credit Score is 692. See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps!
> *
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Justin Anzelc
--
Snowcreek Beaudacious Rock JH
Shorthairs And More |
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GSPJustin
Fremont, CA
MH
Posts:121
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| 05/10/2009 8:53 PM |
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| Sorry I did not catch your reply before Eleanor.
I believe you are right. In that anyone that is already promoting the
breed, like the very people on this list, probably will not gain much
revenue from the breed being able to be shown at an AKC Conformation
event. It is also not them who concern me. It is the people that unload
puppies on the people who watched a black GSP win and Westminister. Who
now all "Godda' have one".
Again, Just my opinion.
Justin Anzelc |
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Justin Anzelc
--
Snowcreek Beaudacious Rock JH
Shorthairs And More |
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r.loew
Posts:8
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| 05/11/2009 12:51 AM |
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| The only way to change the standards is a vote of the clubs and membership.
My club is chartered to promote the 'breed'. If one looks at the dogs
that have come from Germany in recent years ' Black' is not a DQ in
their rules.
Black is allowed in everything but conformation. Black seems part of the
DNA.
Many of our club members have dogs who are black. Our vote was to
support black as part of the standard.
Thanks,
Robert Loew
Secretary, Mason - Dixon GSP Club
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CathyYak
MH
Posts:963
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| 05/11/2009 5:22 AM |
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In a message dated 5/10/2009 10:39:08 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
GSPJustin@comcast.net writes:
It is
the people that unload
puppies on the people who watched a black GSP win
and Westminister. Who
now all "Godda' have
one".
When pigs fly. I cannot see a black and white or a solid black GSP
winning Westminster. But I am glad you are admitting that black and white
GSP's are high quality enough for it to be worrying you .
(That's a joke in case anyone missed it)
Guess we better hope a solid liver never wins there either, huh? Or a white
factor? Same thing could happen...
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Cathy Iacopelli
Claddagh Kennels
Long Island, New York |
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Tracy Novoa
Western NY
MH
Posts:191
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| 05/11/2009 7:56 AM |
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Unfortunately, as well, I know there are GSPCA members who cannot be convinced otherwise, that there WILL be liver AND black GSPs.
Tracy
-----Original Message-----
From: CathyYak@aol.com
To: gsp-l@web.whc.net
Sent: Mon, 11 May 2009 7:08 am
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Black vote?
It is the people that unload
puppies on the people who watched a black GSP win and Westminister. Who
now all "Godda' have one".
When pigs fly. I cannot see a black and white or a solid black GSP winning Westminster. But I am glad you are admitting that black and white GSP's are high quality enough for it to be worrying you .
(That's a joke in case anyone missed it)
Guess we better hope a solid liver never wins there either, huh? Or a white factor? Same thing could happen...
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Enjoy them every minute you have them!
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tracygraci
SH
Posts:45
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| 05/11/2009 9:03 AM |
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I have a question. My problem is not having Black or Liver. It is the Orange and Yellow ticking and or patches...Do you ever consider these colors? In some breedings they will come out.
Lynn
-----Original Message-----
From: gspfreak@aol.com
To: gsp-l@web.whc.net
Sent: Mon, 11 May 2009 9:42 am
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Black vote?
Unfortunately, as well, I know there are GSPCA members who cannot be convinced otherwise, that there WILL be liver AND black GSPs.
Tracy
-----Original Message-----
From: CathyYak@aol.com
To: gsp-l@web.whc.net
Sent: Mon, 11 May 2009 7:08 am
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Black vote?
It is the people that unload
puppies on the people who watched a black GSP win and Westminister. Who
now all "Godda' have one".
When pigs fly. I cannot see a black and white or a solid black GSP winning Westminster. But I am glad you are admitting that black and white GSP's are high quality enough for it to be worrying you .
(That's a joke in case anyone missed it)
Guess we better hope a solid liver never wins there either, huh? Or a white factor? Same thing could happen...
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CathyYak
MH
Posts:963
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| 05/11/2009 9:16 AM |
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It is the Orange and Yellow ticking and or patches...Do you ever consider these colors? In some breedings they will come out.
Purebred GSPs should never be orange or lemon. Orange or lemon are not acceptable in GSP's in any country that I am aware of, probably because those colors indicate impure breeding. As does silver, regardless of what you (generic you) may have heard. Two purebred GSPs will not produce those colors. If they do, there is either a genetic mutation (which is often mentioned, but rarely, if ever, actually the case), or there is another breed of dog in one of the previous generations, maybe unknown to the people who produced those dogs. With DNA testing now not only able to determine immediate parentage, but also able to detect mixed bred dogs, this should not be a problem down the road.
Francois, can you assist in the genetic explanation of this?
Cathy
-----Original Message-----
From: tracygraci@aol.com
To: gsp-l@web.whc.net
Sent: Mon, 11 May 2009 10:46 am
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Black vote?
I have a question. My problem is not having Black or Liver. It is the Orange and Yellow ticking and or patches...Do you ever consider these colors? In some breedings they will come out.
Lynn
-----Original Message-----
From: gspfreak@aol.com
To: gsp-l@web.whc.net
Sent: Mon, 11 May 2009 9:42 am
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Black vote?
Unfortunately, as well, I know there are GSPCA members who cannot be convinced otherwise, that there WILL be liver AND black GSPs.
Tracy
-----Original Message-----
From: CathyYak@aol.com
To: gsp-l@web.whc.net
Sent: Mon, 11 May 2009 7:08 am
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Black vote?
It is the people that unload
puppies on the people who watched a black GSP win and Westminister. Who
now all "Godda' have one".
When pigs fly. I cannot see a black and white or a solid black GSP winning Westminster. But I am glad you are admitting that black and white GSP's are high quality enough for it to be worrying you .
(That's a joke in case anyone missed it)
Guess we better hope a solid liver never wins there either, huh? Or a white factor? Same thing could happen...
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Cathy Iacopelli
Claddagh Kennels
Long Island, New York |
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tracygraci
SH
Posts:45
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| 05/11/2009 9:45 AM |
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Cathy, You honestly believe that in some of our GSP's there is No Pointer back there??? I would wonder what a current DNA would show on a field trail dog with known pointer way in his background? How would it come up? When I started in GSP's in 1974 it was field trailing and I know for a fact that they were breeding GSP & AF Pointers. So there are a lot of people out there that have these old lines way back in their pedigree. If those dogs were never followed through DNA then what is to say that these pointer colors could not come out?
JMO
L
-----Original Message-----
From: cathyyak@aol.com
To: gsp-l@web.whc.net
Sent: Mon, 11 May 2009 11:00 am
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Black vote?
It is the Orange and Yellow ticking and or patches...Do you ever consider these colors? In some breedings they will come out.
Purebred GSPs should never be orange or lemon. Orange or lemon are not acceptable in GSP's in any country that I am aware of, probably because those colors indicate impure breeding. As does silver, regardless of what you (generic you) may have heard. Two purebred GSPs will not produce those colors. If they do, there is either a genetic mutation (which is often mentioned, but rarely, if ever, actually the case), or there is another breed of dog in one of the previous generations, maybe unknown to the people who produced those dogs. With DNA testing now not only able to determine immediate parentage, but also able to detect mixed bred dogs, this should not be a problem down the road.
Francois, can you assist in the genetic explanation of this?
Cathy
-----Original Message-----
From: tracygraci@aol.com
To: gsp-l@web.whc.net
Sent: Mon, 11 May 2009 10:46 am
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Black vote?
I have a question. My problem is not having Black or Liver. It is the Orange and Yellow ticking and or patches...Do you ever consider these colors? In some breedings they will come out.
Lynn
-----Original Message-----
From: gspfreak@aol.com
To: gsp-l@web.whc.net
Sent: Mon, 11 May 2009 9:42 am
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Black vote?
Unfortunately, as well, I know there are GSPCA members who cannot be convinced otherwise, that there WILL be liver AND black GSPs.
Tracy
-----Original Message-----
From: CathyYak@aol.com
To: gsp-l@web.whc.net
Sent: Mon, 11 May 2009 7:08 am
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Black vote?
It is the people that unload
puppies on the people who watched a black GSP win and Westminister. Who
now all "Godda' have one".
When pigs fly. I cannot see a black and white or a solid black GSP winning Westminster. But I am glad you are admitting that black and white GSP's are high quality enough for it to be worrying you .
(That's a joke in case anyone missed it)
Guess we better hope a solid liver never wins there either, huh? Or a white factor? Same thing could happen...
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