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Ken Lynch
Hudson Valley in NY
MH
Posts:201
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| 03/27/2008 12:01 PM |
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| In the section “HEAD” the added words create a relationship between the color of the nose and a color. That is a brown nose is related to liver and a black nose is related to black. In this section there is no mention of a disqualification relative to a black or brown nose. The section “HEAD” discusses all those components that make up the head. That is, eye, nose, ear, muzzle, etc. Those components which have features causing disqualification are so stated. Flesh colored nose for instance is singled out as a disqualification. Same with China or wall eyes. The section “COLOR”, is a discussion limited to the colors of the coat. A separate section “COAT” limits coat to be hair. Coat does not include nose. Coat does not include toe nails. Coat does not include the skin on the inside of the mouth. So the section “COLOR” is discussing allowable colors of the coat and is where we find a condition causing disqualification. That is both liver and black coloration. The section “DISQUALIFICATIONS” merely summarizes all those things that cause disqualification. Said disqualifications having been defined elsewhere in the standard. |
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invernessgsp
MH
Posts:91
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| 03/27/2008 12:15 PM |
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| Well, being one of those people disqualified from the ring, and written up
and sent to AKC (and subsequently receiving a lettter from AKC stating if I
was disqualified again, for being black, I would be barred from showing
this particular dog), I would like to add that neither a black number nor a
black leash changed the opinion of the judge and according to the AKC rep,
it didnt matter if she had a brown nose, if the judge said she was black,
she was black.
My solution was to never, ever show her to that judge again.
Dorothy Thompson
invernessgsp@bellsouth.net
http://home.bellsouth.net/p/pwp-invernessgsp
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Shaffer"
To:
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 12:01 PM
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Black and white
> Orrrr, you could hold a Black lead up to the dog as I'm pretty sure has
> been done before?
>
> Thanx Kindly and Have A Great Day,
> Bruce
>
>
> Quoting ASKMEGSP@aol.com:
>
>> Cathy I am not the only person with amazingly dark liver dogs. There are
>> tons
>> of us out there east coast to west coast. Perhaps there have been so few
>> disqualifications because we've always been able to say. If it is a
>> liver nose, it
>> is a liver dog ?
>>
>>
>>
>> **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL
>> Home.
>> (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001)
>>
>
>
>
>
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LahrGSP
MH
Posts:703
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| 03/27/2008 12:26 PM |
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In a message dated 3/27/2008 4:02:02 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
CathyYak@aol.com writes:
How
often has it actually that a judge has disqualified a dark liver for being
black?
Brie's coloring was questioned by Christina Hubbel but
she just put her into the sun and went through her coat and said OK she is
liver. And then placed her WB.
My dogs are dark liver and never once have been DQ'd
and we even showed to "That judge" 
Julie
Lahr
www.vonlahrheim.com
Nobody can make
you feel inferior without your permission.
-Eleanor
Roosevelt-
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ASKMEGSP
MH
Posts:184
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| 03/27/2008 1:10 PM |
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Does your dog have a liver nose ? I suspect she does. Pretty scarey that the judge had to put her in the sun to tell she was liver. In spite of the fact that ALL judges that have EVER attended a parent club seminar have been told LIVER NOSE, LIVER DOG. AND to spite the fact that at one time, a letter WAS sent to all sporting dog judges explaining that fact. I guess you guys are right. If they don't get it, they never will.
Brie's coloring was questioned by Christina Hubbel but she just put her into the sun and went through her coat and said OK she is liver. And then placed her WB.
My dogs are dark liver and never once have been DQ'd and we even showed to "That judge"
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LahrGSP
MH
Posts:703
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| 03/27/2008 1:33 PM |
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In a message dated 3/27/2008 1:01:18 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
ASKMEGSP@aol.com writes:
Does your dog have
a liver nose ? I suspect she does. Pretty scarey
that the judge had to put her in the sun to tell she was
liver
Yes she did have a liver nose. She pulled her out and
ran her fingers through her coat and spread it apart and really looked I don't
even think she looked at her nose. It was about 8 years ago.
Julie
Lahr
www.vonlahrheim.com
Nobody can make
you feel inferior without your permission.
-Eleanor
Roosevelt-
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Ayres
Posts:7
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| 03/27/2008 1:35 PM |
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If you want to talk about losing entry fees due to irresponsible judges, you have to compare that to the fact that, the way the standard reads now, owners of black GSPs are completely shut out of entering the show ring under every judge.
Again, as stated before, the language about a combination of black and liver on the coat color was added this time around because it was specifically voted against for being absent the last time.
Finally, if a dark liver dog is to be viewed as "black" by a judge then it will be DQ'd no matter what the nose color is. If the standard is changed, the only way that dog will be DQ'd is if the judge irresponsibly makes the incorrect assumption that the dog's coat color is black and its nose color is liver. Is that distant possibility of someone else's poor judgment really worth keeping all black dogs out of the show ring?
Posted By ASKMEGSP on 03/27/2008 8:31 AM
I show on average 2 weekends a month, and I would avoid the judges that I know to have issue. I would say on average, coat color has been questioned 3 or 4 times a year. (read $120 in entries) None of mine have been DQ'd because I point out the liver nose.
"If the amendment passes, a judge will not try to DQ your dog for being black. it would actually help you!" How would the amendment help ? ALL liver dogs have liver noses regardless of their coat color !
"The only problem would be if a dog's coat looked black and his nose looked liver." EXACTLY
Ann
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ASKMEGSP
MH
Posts:184
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| 03/27/2008 1:40 PM |
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That's my point, Julie. All she had to do was LOOK at her NOSE.
Ann
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krtennyson
Northern Virginia
MH
Posts:69
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| 03/27/2008 1:50 PM |
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I am definitely for the proposed ammendment as currently worded, and I disagree with those in thsi thread who claim it introduces more confusion into the standard. I have the luxury of not having been around for the "old battles" that have been fought, and on face value this seems perfectly reasonable to me. If my ballot is in my mailbox, I will be mailing a YES vote today! |
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Opinions are like @ssholes, everyone has one.
Genuine dialogue benefits everyone, getting on your soapbox is a waste of everyone's time. |
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fourwinds27
Posts:19
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| 03/27/2008 4:18 PM |
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At one show I had littermates entered. A male, I had sold who was a
beautiful deep liver shade. His new owners were showing. Judge DQ'd for being
black. Litter sister I kept, went winners bitch. I was so upset, because
the kicker was, the judge was wearing sunglasses and would not even take them
off!!!
Kim
Well,
being one of those people disqualified from the ring, and written up
and
sent to AKC (and subsequently receiving a lettter from AKC stating if I
was disqualified again, for being black, I would be barred from
showing
this particular dog), I would like to add that neither a black
number nor a
black leash changed the opinion of the judge and according to
the AKC rep,
it didnt matter if she had a brown nose, if the judge said
she was black,
she was black.
My solution was to never, ever show
her to that judge again.
Dorothy Thompson
invernessgsp@bellsouth.net
http://home.bellsouth.net/p/pwp-invernessgsp
-----
Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Shaffer" <blshaffer@frontiernet.net>
To:
<gsp-l@web.whc.net>
Sent: Thursday,
March 27, 2008 12:01 PM
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Black and
white
> Orrrr, you could hold a Black lead up to the dog as I'm
pretty sure has
> been done before?
>
> Thanx Kindly
and Have A Great Day,
> Bruce
>
>
> Quoting ASKMEGSP@aol.com:
>
>> Cathy
I am not the only person with amazingly dark liver dogs. There are
>> tons
>> of us out there east coast to west coast.
Perhaps there have been so few
>> disqualifications because we've
always been able to say. If it is a
>> liver nose, it
>> is
a liver dog ?
>>
>>
>>
>>
**************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on
AOL
>> Home.
>> (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001)
>>
>
>
>
>
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CathyYak
MH
Posts:963
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| 03/27/2008 4:51 PM |
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<>
That may be the way you have been handing it Ann, but isn't it a
crutch of sorts? All the judge really had to do was look at her COAT to
know she was not black. In all actuality, you are using one fact to prove
another, and if the judge does not accept that nose color must match coat color
it will not work.
Now what might work is to have a black and white dog in the ring with
you. <<>. That would prove your liver dog
was not black.
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Cathy Iacopelli
Claddagh Kennels
Long Island, New York |
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Gspdoo
MH
Posts:326
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| 03/27/2008 5:03 PM |
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Sue -- thanks for your clarification -- Is it possible to know who
were the members of the committee proposing the revision and collecting
signatures? This is not a negative question -- I was just surprised when I
opened up my ballot and saw this as an issue to vote upon.
Second, am I to assume that for this to pass will require a 2/3 vote of the
membership?
Sandra Kretz
MARIAH
In a message dated 3/27/2008 11:05:54 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
snomel@commspeed.net writes:
Just
a little clarification as to how this revision came about. A group of members
prepared a petition to remove black as a disqualification in the breed
standard. They prepared the proposed changes and got signatures of members (in
excess of 10% of the GSPCA membership) who agreed with the proposed change.
The petition was sent to the GSPCA and the signatures were verified as being
members in good standing. The proposed change was sent to the American Kennel
Club for approval of the language before it was made part of the ballot that
you have received. That approval was given and the ballots were prepared using
the language that had been provided in the petition. This was done in
accordance with the Constitution and By-laws of the GSPCA. I thought you’d
like to know.
Sue
Clemons
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Maria
Posts:2
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| 03/27/2008 5:07 PM |
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Very interesting discussions all round.
I've been fighting for this fight for at least 16 year and it is nice to see that the notable breeders are at least very accepting of the coat colour. The issue of judges and dark liver/liver noses will go away when we have liver and black in the ring at the same time. Even the darkest liver coat placed beside a black coat cannot pass for black and this applies to nose leather.
I feel that this is more an issue of judging education which it has been all along. I've had many times over the years been asked to stand my black coated dogs near dark liver....no comparison. Liver coats, liver noses. Black coats, black noses. (the rare exception is when my black dogs dig in the Missouri "mud" and have liver noses!! Just kidding).
I think the changes address this simply and clearly. UKC now allows blacks to show. Internationally they show equally and the only time I've seen discrimination is judges bias. That exists here with solid coats, bright coats, roan coats etc. We all have to be selective with our "type". Wait till you see my gorgeous solid black bitch "Clio" (Sunshine's Bittersweet Moonstruck). Her nose leather is so black. Imagine my difficulty in finishing a black coat and a solid one!!
Maria
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Maria
BittersweetGSPs |
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shortales
MH
Posts:336
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| 03/27/2008 5:30 PM |
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Maria I think your comment is very true. Judges will be able to learn from more hands on experience and the new (in process) Illustrated Standard will help with that education if the change is voted in. I'm sure we will have the bias of coat color for a time but when structurally sound and beautiful dogs are shown this too shall pass. At least they will be allowed to participate. Maybe when I tell my shorthairs that black is OK they will like my black spotty dog, then again NOT, unless he keeps his mouth shut ) Leita Estes Shortales German Shorthaired Pointers 1 Spotty dog (Dalmatian) Ch. Merry Go Rounds Match Point ----- Original Message ---- From: "gsp-l@web.whc.net"
To: shortales@rocketmail.com
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 4:58:12 PM
Subject: SubscribedEmail (18dbd491-ac1e-451c-aaa7-4e99367dfc1a)
At 03/27/2008 5:07 PM a message was posted to a thread you were tracking.
RE: [gsp-l] Black and white by Maria
Very interesting discussions all round. I've been fighting for this fight for at least 16 year and it is nice to see that the notable breeders are at least very accepting of the coat colour. The issue of judges and dark liver/liver noses will go away when we have liver and black in the ring at the same time. Even the darkest liver coat placed beside a black coat cannot pass for black and this applies to nose leather. I feel that this is more an issue of judging education which it has been all along. I've had many times over the years been
asked to stand my black coated dogs near dark liver....no comparison. Liver coats, liver noses. Black coats, black noses. (the rare exception is when my black dogs dig in the Missouri "mud" and have liver noses!! Just kidding). I think the changes address this simply and clearly. UKC now allows blacks to show. Internationally they show equally and the only time I've seen discrimination is judges bias. That exists here with solid coats, bright coats, roan coats etc. We all have to be selective with our "type". Wait till you see my gorgeous solid black bitch "Clio" (Sunshine's Bittersweet Moonstruck). Her nose leather is so black. Imagine my difficulty in finishing a black coat and a solid one!! Maria
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bajnok
MH
Posts:67
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| 03/27/2008 6:14 PM |
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Genetically impossible (short of a mutation) in a purebred
GSP, at least as far as the coat colours are concerned. I don't know enough
about the genetics of eye colour to say anything about wall eyes. With
cross-breeding, one could eventually arrive at some of these colours. so
in that sense they are genetically possible.
But the *same* dog being black and liver (aside from the
somatic mutation scenario) is indeed a genetic impossibility whether we are
talking purebred GSPs or cross-breds. It is sort of sad that this kind of
statement would find its way in a breed standard in this day and age. It's not a
show stopper but one can't help wishing that bit of nonsense had not been
included. Hopefully, it can be gotten rid of later.
To pick up on an earlier line of thought, I have long believed
it is a misuse of DQs to use them to "fight" cross-breeding. The purpose of the
breed standard is to describe the idea PUREBRED specimen of a breed. Any DQ
should still be a BREED DQ, i.e. it refers to some unacceptable characteristic
of the purebred dog. Eliminating mutts from the show ring and the whelping box
is not purpose of breed standards IMO. That being said, DQs have certainly
been misused that way in a great many instances in the past, in Sporting breeds,
often as part of the Pointerphobia that may at times have had some basis in fact
Francois-R. Bernier
Bajnok Regd Vizslas &
GSPs
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 9:02
AM
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Black and
white
Again, the point that it is genetically impossible for a black and liver
and white GSP to exist outside of mutation, IMO does not preclude it from
being included in the standard, unless you agree to remove the other DQ's that
are also genetically impossible, such as wall eyes, lemon, orange and red
coloring. We must be consistent, don't you
think?
Cathy
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bajnok
MH
Posts:67
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| 03/28/2008 4:02 AM |
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It is rather disheartening to think that many people involved
in the breed could think that this is a possibility. Seems not only some
judges may be in need of catching up on their education. Anyway, as I wrote
earlier, I fully support the long overdue removal of the black
disqualification. I just regret it has to come with that bit of nonsense
attached.
Francois-R. Bernier
Bajnok Regd Vizslas &
GSPs
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 9:02
AM
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Black and
white
MANY people voted against the proposal because it did NOT say that liver
and black should not be found on the same dog. Remember all the
discussion about mutations? How dogs could have patches of
black?
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